the pub, the newspaper, the park...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Verona_82

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Member Type
Other
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Russian Federation
Current Location
Ukraine
Hello,

I'm revising fixed expessions with definite articles and having problems with some of them.
We go to the shops, to the bank and to the post office, but do we go to the pub?? I was sure about that until I saw 'going to a pub' in an English coursebook.

Also, do we always read the newspaper? All the examples I've come across so far contained 'the'. This is illogical. How can I know what kind of newspaper a person is/was reading?

-What did you do last night? Nothing much. Just stayed in and read the newspaper. What about you?
- I went for a walk in the park. I love walking in the park when I have free time.

Do we always say "walk/stroll in the park" although there may be half a dozen parks in town and it's impossible to figure out which one is being referred to?

Articles are really tricky :shock:; sometimes they don't seem to follow any logic.

Thank you in advance.
 

Rover_KE

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
.. .but do we go to the pub?

Yes. Just like '. . .to the bank', we say '.. .to the pub' unless it's important to stipulate exactly which bank or pub we went to.

Also, do we always read the newspaper?
Do we always say "walk/stroll in the park"?

Usually, yes. If it mattered to you, you could always ask 'Which newspaper/park?'

Rover
 

Verona_82

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Member Type
Other
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Russian Federation
Current Location
Ukraine
Thank you. The phrase 'going to a pub' was from a coursebook (it was on the list of the most popular leisure activities of the British). Does it sound wrong to you?
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Thank you. The phrase 'going to a pub' was from a coursebook (it was on the list of the most popular leisure activities of the British). Does it sound wrong to you?
Not necessarily, though the would probably be a more natural choice.

1. I am going to the pub means either I am going out for a drink or I am going to my local pub.
2. I am going to a pub
means I am going to a building that happens to be a pub (rather than, for example, a restaurant or a cinema). It is quite possible that I have arranged to meet someone at a pub I don't know.

Very often, going to the pub/cinema/theatre/opera/ballet/etc has more to do with how, rather than where, we are spending our time.
 
Last edited:

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Hello,

I'm revising fixed expessions with definite articles and having problems with some of them.
We go to the shops, to the bank and to the post office, but do we go to the pub?? I was sure about that until I saw 'going to a pub' in an English coursebook.

Also, do we always read the newspaper? All the examples I've come across so far contained 'the'. This is illogical. How can I know what kind of newspaper a person is/was reading?

-What did you do last night? Nothing much. Just stayed in and read the newspaper. What about you?
- I went for a walk in the park. I love walking in the park when I have free time.

Do we always say "walk/stroll in the park" although there may be half a dozen parks in town and it's impossible to figure out which one is being referred to?

Articles are really tricky :shock:; sometimes they don't seem to follow any logic.

Thank you in advance.


***** NOT A TEACHER *****


Verona,


Thank you so much for your question. After researching the answer,

I now understand it a little (a little!!!) better. (Of course, I shall give

credit to my "teachers" at the end.)

(1) One source agrees with you: "Teachers reported that article usage

was their number one teaching problem." This source also reminded us

that "the" comes from the word for "that" (which signals distance); "a"

comes from the word for "one." (My comment: maybe if we keep

that in mind, it might help us to better understand article usage.)

(2) The most insightful source I found reminded us that "the" is not

always so definite. This source says that sometimes there is an

indefinite definite article (or "weak" definite article).

Look at these two sentences:

(a) I'll read the newspaper when I get home.

(b) I'll read the book when I get home.

What is the difference in the use of "the"? The authors point out that

in (a) "the" is "weak." That is, "the particular identity of the ...newspaper...is not thought to be especially important."

But in (b), the speaker is definitely referring to a particular book.

The scholars say something very interesting:

(In my words) Maybe the "weak" definites are in fact INdefinites

in disguise!!! They say that "John read the newspaper" is equivalent

to "John read a newspaper." (But they also warn: do NOT think that

"weak" definites and ordinary indefinites are the same.)

Here is another one of their wonderful sentences:

(I have changed it a bit) Mary heard about the riot on the radio, and


Bob heard about the riot on the radio. They explain that "the riot" is

a case of a regular definite (there is a particular riot), but "the radio"

is a "weak" indefinite. Why? Maybe Mary heard the riot on the radio

at home, and Bob heard about the riot on the radio at school. The

authors point out we would get the same interpretation if we replaced

"the radio" with "a radio."

(3) I also found more insight from some authors who talked about

what they called "functional uniqueness." They explained that sometimes

we are less interested in the identity of something than in the unique

role that it plays within "a certain socio-cultural frame."

They say that "I read it the newspaper" evokes the frame of the media.

In other words, the institution of the media.

They say that "We can take the bus" evokes the frame of public transport.

We use "the" in those two sentences because we are thinking of a

unique "kind."

(4) Finally, I can assure you that "a newspaper" is often heard.

Maybe a teacher might say to her students: I want everyone to bring

a (that is, "one") newspaper to class tomorrow. And I think that

many younger people say: I never read a newspaper. I get all my

news from the Internet or on my mobile device.

Therefore, I can well imagine the following dialogue:




A teenager talking on the (!!!) phone: What are you doing, Grandpa?

Grandfather: Oh, I am reading a newspaper.

Teenager: What is a newspaper, Grandpa?

***** NOT A TEACHER *****


Sources:

1. Google "Seemingly Indefinite Definites." Written by Mr. Greg Carlson and Ms. Rachel Shirley Sussman.

2. Google "Cognitive English Grammar read the newspaper." Written by Mr. Gunter Radden.

3. The Grammar Book (1983 edition) by Mesdames Celcia-Murcia and Larsen-Freeman, pages 171-172.

4. Google "Linguist List 13. 1363." A discussion with many viewpoints.

5. Google "Apparently arbitrary application of article rules"; then when page of results appears, click on "more" in the menu on the left; and then click on "discussions."

If you find any good articles on this subject, please let us know.

THANK YOU
 
Last edited:

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
***** NOT A TEACHER *****


Verona,


Yesterday I was reading The New Yorker magazine of February 7, 2011, when I found

something that helped me to better understand the articles. It was in a story about

the life of a British author. Here are the few words from his diary that I wish to share:



I could scarcely ever conclude or even start a journey, but must always be impulsively leaping off THE bus as it went, or leaving THE train at some intermediate station, or getting on A train that was going heavens knows where, [in order] to ... get a closer look ....


It is ONLY my opinion that he used those two definite articles because they refer to a

specific bus or train that he had remembered, and that he used the indefinite article

because it referred to ONE of many trains that he had boarded without knowing its

destination.

I assume that this author used "correct" English, for the story says that he was

considered by many people as "the best editor in London."



***** NOT A TEACHER *****
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
I could scarcely ever conclude or even start a journey, but must always be impulsively leaping off THE bus as it went, or leaving THE train at some intermediate station, or getting on A train that was going heavens knows where, [in order] to ... get a closer look ....

It is ONLY my opinion that he used those two definite articles because they refer to a specific bus or train that he had remembered, and that he used the indefinite article because it referred to ONE of many trains that he had boarded without knowing its destination.

I assume that this author used "correct" English...
It doesn't have to be a specific bus or train, at least not in BrE. This is an example of what you might call a 'weak' or 'indefinite' definite article. We commonly speak of the bus, train etc. The indefinite article is used for a different purpose in the third phrase.

I speak of the tram because I live in a city with trams. People from tramless cities who visit me tend to speak of a tram when they first arrive, then change to the tram, reverting to a tram when they get home.

Most people do not travel by air very often; for them, the plane would be a specific one; someone who travelled regularly by plane might well be using a 'weak' indefinite article when he says, "I had breakfast on the plane this morning".
 

birdeen's call

VIP Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
It doesn't have to be a specific bus or train, at least not in BrE. This is an example of what you might call a 'weak' or 'indefinite' definite article. We commonly speak of the bus, train etc. The indefinite article is used for a different purpose in the third phrase.
What is the different purpose? I don't understand.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
What is the different purpose? I don't understand.
I expressed myself badly. What I meant was that the indefinite article was used in a different way from the definite article - differently from we the way we normally understand the difference.

In the first two expressions we have a 'weak' or 'indefinite' definite article; in the third we have an indefinite article that is used more 'definitely':shock:. By this I mean that 'getting on a train that was going heavens knows where' is more restricted than just 'getting on a train'. The latter can mean 'any train', but the former does not include trains going to known destination.

So, we are dealing with a different difference.:)
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Warning: This post is not helpful for most students.

These are my attempts at 1. an indefinite indefinite article, 2. an indefinite definite article, 3 a definite definite article and 4. a definite indefinite article.

My glosses are deliberately short, but give the rough idea. Do you think I’ve got it right?

1. As I was getting on a bus this morning… It is possible that I don’t normally travel by bus.

2. As I was getting on the bus this morning… It is probable that I often travel by bus.

3. As I was getting on the bus to Farnham this morning… A specific bus.

4. As I was getting on a bus to Farnham this morning… This is more specific than #2, but not as specific as #3.


I know this is getting rather away from Verona's original question, but I think that was answered in earlier posts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top