J
jwschang
Guest
Casiopea said:Casiopea wrote:
Cas3. I ate. (finished, over, ended)
Cas4. I have eaten. (finished, over, ended)
'ate' is an action that HAPPENED in the past "action" has got to go.
jws replied:
I don't understand what you mean by "action" has got to go
We need to delete or change the word "action" in part A of our definition. Otherwise, it defines the Perfect and the Simple Past as having no difference: [Sometimes there's a difference (as in the "enjoyed talking" example), sometimes maybe no (as in the "ate" example).]
Definition Part A. Present Perfect expresses an action that is already COMPLETED at the present time.
jws added:No difference. That's what I meant by saying that the difference may not ALWAYS be there between the two tenses. Which is very true, because we often have a choice of saying the same thing in more than one way.
Well, not necessarily. Just because a given speaker, native or non-native, feels there is no difference between, say, "I ate" and "I have eaten" doesn't prove they are the same. That is, the similarity is apparent only. Both actions ended, finished, are over. They seem similar, don't they, but they aren't. (Agreed. I may see no difference, someone else may see or mean a difference.)
1. I think most (all??, including scientific ones?) definitions will have limitations. If we apply the Pareto Principle, it may be good enough that the definition covers the main gist; I think it cannot be completely comprehensive. Exceptions, specific contexts, etc will have to be dealt with by qualification, illustrations, etc.
2. Trouble is, many students like "clear" rules, so the teacher is hard-pressed on this, to avoid confusing the student.
3. I try to keep it simple (where possible) and "stupid". If the learner can first learn to use the language WITH mistakes but generally correctly, then the refinement comes later and gradually. Some educators may disagree with this viewpoint, like saying old habits die hard.