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  1. #11
    2006 is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post

    As thatone showed, "pronouncing them differently is dialectal/characteristic of a conservative dialect." It seems that you mean a traditionally correct pronunciation.

    And let me ask those of you who think that "weather" and whether" should have the same pronunciation how you would handle the following situuation.

    Question: How is 'whether' spelled?
    Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'w-h-e-ther' and 'w-e-a-ther'?

    "WH
    Learners of EFL are recommended to use plain w."

    It's very questionable for an 'authority' to recommend nonstandard pronunciation. (if I understand your post correctly)

    2006

  2. #12
    thatone is offline Member
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    Quote Originally Posted by 2006 View Post
    Question: How is 'whether' spelled?
    Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'w-h-e-ther' and 'w-e-a-ther'?
    Question: How is 'meat' spelled?
    Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'm-e-a-t' and 'm-e-e-t'?

    It's very questionable for an 'authority' to recommend nonstandard pronunciation. (if I understand your post correctly)
    Standard
    4 : substantially uniform and well established by usage in the speech and writing of the educated and widely recognized as acceptable *standard pronunciation is subject to regional variations* (Merriam, Webster)

    Let's see, in Labov's survey only 1/6 of all respondents from the US and Canada don't have the wine-whine merger. Numbers are even lower in most English speaking countries. I'm sorry, but what was correct years ago is dialectal today. Happens all the time. Think about yod-dropping in the US. Think about the Great Vowel Shift. I'm sure your pronunciation is nonstandard by Middle English standards.
    Last edited by thatone; 21-Feb-2011 at 13:25.

  3. #13
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    Quote Originally Posted by thatone View Post
    Question: How is 'meat' spelled?
    Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'm-e-a-t' and 'm-e-e-t'?
    Good Luck, thatone. I am leaving the discussion to you and BC, though I don't think you'll get very far. Statistics and facts have little chance against irrational faith.

  4. #14
    2006 is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    [QUOTE=thatone;716633]Question: How is 'meat' spelled?
    Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'm-e-a-t' and 'm-e-e-t'?
    This is irrelevant. No one disputes that the two m words have the same pronunciation.
    And there are people who pronounce "whether" and "weather" differently./QUOTE]
    2006
    Last edited by 2006; 21-Feb-2011 at 07:31.

  5. #15
    2006 is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Good Luck, thatone. I am leaving the discussion to you and BC, though I don't think you'll get very far.
    That's a cop-out.
    2006

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    2006: That's a cop-out.
    5jj:I'll cop out of discussions with anyone who thinks that assertion is all that is required for acceptable argument. I have better things to do with my time.

    2006: And there are people who pronounce "whether" and "weather" differently.
    5jj: Nobody has claimed there weren't. As a matter of fact, I pronounce the words differently myself. I just accept that my pronunciation of 'whether' is not 'the correct' version. It is an acceptable, non-standard version that still enjoys a certain prestige among a minority of speakers.

  7. #17
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    Quote Originally Posted by 2006 View Post
    Question: How is 'meat' spelled?
    Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'm-e-a-t' and 'm-e-e-t'?
    This is irrelevant. No one disputes that the two m words have the same pronunciation.
    And there are people who pronounce "whether" and "weather" differently.
    2006
    OK, so this example will be exactly analogous to your argument I think:
    Question: How is "diner" spelled?
    Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'd-i-n-e-r' and 'D-i-n-a-h'?

  8. #18
    2006 is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    OK, so this example will be exactly analogous to your argument I think:
    Question: How is "diner" spelled?
    Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'd-i-n-e-r' and 'D-i-n-a-h'?
    No I would not. As opposed to at least some BrE, in standard North American English the r at the end of words is pronounced.
    I don't think there is any point in offering new examples.

  9. #19
    2006 is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    2006: That's a cop-out.
    5jj:I'll cop out of discussions with anyone who thinks that assertion is all that is required for acceptable argument. You and others have gone to great lengths to supposedly show how unusual it is to pronounce words like "weather" and" whether" differently, practically to the point of saying that pronouncing them differently is wrong, or at least dialectal.

    2006: And there are people who pronounce "whether" and "weather" differently.
    5jj: Nobody has claimed there weren't. As a matter of fact, I pronounce the words differently myself. But at the end of the day, the two native speakers here, you and I, both pronounce them differently. Do you think that is just a coincidence?
    So you have not changed my belief that the most correct and standard pronunciation of the two words is different. Otherwise it could be that one can only know which word the speaker means through the rest of the words in the sentence. Does that sound like an optimal way of knowing what the speaker is saying? And that does not only apply to those two particular words.
    I hope to have nothing more to say on this thread.

  10. #20
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pronunciation of were (where)

    Quote Originally Posted by 2006 View Post
    You and others have gone to great lengths to supposedly show how unusual it is to pronounce words like "weather" and" whether" differently, practically to the point of saying that pronouncing them differently is wrong, or at least dialectal.
    Nobody has suggested it is wrong, but when it is used by less than 20%of the population, it does not appear reasonable to call it 'standard'.

    So you have not changed my belief that the most correct and standard pronunciation of the two words is different. Otherwise it could be that one can only know which word the speaker means through the rest of the words in the sentence. Does that sound like an optimal way of knowing what the speaker is saying?
    If this were the only homophone pair/pear in/inn the language, you/ewe/yew might/mite be wright/rite/write/right. But/butt it isn't.
    If you cannot accept the facts, then carry on in your fancies. They harm nobody - except the odd student who might start worrying about a non-existent problem.

    A reminder of some of the facts:

    Thatone:
    According to Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2006: 49),[2] while there are regions of the U.S. (particularly in the Southeast) where speakers keeping the distinction are about as numerous as those having the merger, there are no regions where the preservation of the distinction is predominant. Throughout the U.S. and Canada, about 83% of respondents in the survey had the merger completely, while about 17% preserved at least some trace of the distinction.
    ...
    While some RP speakers still use /hw/, most accents of England, Wales, West Indies and the southern hemisphere have only /w/.

    Birdeen’s Call:
    It is a matter of opinion, but major dictionaries have an opinion different from yours. AH, MW, Collins, OALD all give the pronunciation you call nonstandard (none of them calls it nonstandard) and two of them (the British ones) give only this one.

    5jj:

    "… the pronunciation is most cases is w, as in white waɪt. An alternative pronunciation, depending on regional, social and stylistic factors, is hw, thus hwait. This h pronunciation is usual in Scottish and Irish English, and decreasingly so in AmE, but not otherwise."

    Wells, J C, (2008), Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (3rd edn), Harlow: PearsonLongman.
    Last edited by 5jj; 22-Feb-2011 at 09:22. Reason: typo

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