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  1. #11
    Kotfor is offline Member
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Where did you find these examples? They all sound very unnatural to me.
    Here they go.

    1) Divine Omniscience and Omnipotence in Medieval Philosophy: Islamic, Jewish and Christian Perspectives and other books by Tamar Rudavsky

    2) The Cambridge Companion to Augustine (Cambridge Companions to Philosophy) Eleonore Stump (Editor), Norman Kretzmann (Editor)

    3) Free Will and Four English Philosophers: Hobbes, Locke, Hume and Mill Book by Joseph Rickaby; 1906.

  2. #12
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post

    Get thee out, and depart hence; for Herode [sic] will kill thee.

    Professor Jespersen says that "nowadays" (he was writing in 1933!!!) people misunderstand that sentence. They think it is a prediction. Actually, the professor explains, that is an excellent example of the full [lexical] verb. The sentence actually means that Herod means to kill.
    Jespersen was a fine grammarian to whom all his successors owe a debt of gratitude. However, even the great Otto could make a slip, and he did here. He is right in saying that it's not prediction, but 'will' here is the modal auxiliary with the meaning of 'means, intends'.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    Quote Originally Posted by Kotfor View Post
    1) Divine Omniscience and Omnipotence in Medieval Philosophy: Islamic, Jewish and Christian Perspectives and other books by Tamar Rudavsky
    2) The Cambridge Companion to Augustine (Cambridge Companions to Philosophy) Eleonore Stump (Editor), Norman Kretzmann (Editor)
    3) Free Will and Four English Philosophers: Hobbes, Locke, Hume and Mill Book by Joseph Rickaby; 1906.
    Right. I thought your examples might have come from sources such as these, which are not good examples of natural modern English. If you delve into older books on philosophy and religion, you can find all sorts of things that would sound strange in normal life.

  4. #14
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Jespersen was a fine grammarian to whom all his successors owe a debt of gratitude. However, even the great Otto could make a slip, and he did here. He is right in saying that it's not prediction, but 'will' here is the modal auxiliary with the meaning of 'means, intends'.

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    Teacher Fivejedon,

    (1) I am horrified that I have misunderstood. I am now

    going to quote the full paragraph. First, the necessary credit:

    Otto Jespersen, Essentials of English Grammar (University, Alabama:

    University of Alabama Press, 1964), p. 272. [Reprint of a 1933 book.]

    It is a natural consequence of the notion of volition that it generally
    has reference to what is to happen in the future; hence the auxiliary will comes to be used extensively to express first a volition-coloured
    future and finally a future time without such colouring. In the course of time the meaning of the verb has become weakened, and to express real volition we must now generally use other verbs: mean, intend, want, choose. Where the Authorized Version has: Get thee out, and depart hence; for Herode will kill thee -- most people will nowadays misunderstand it as a prediction, but the meaning is "means to kill."

    I interpreted that as meaning that "will kill" is an example of the full verb

    that is no longer recognized as such. For example, on page 271, he gives

    this quote from Shakespeare as a full [lexical] verb:

    Seeing that death, a necessary end, Will come when it will come.

    I just recently learned that you have your own grammar website. Your

    credentials are very impressive. So I must have misunderstood the great

    professor. I most humbly and abjectly apologize. I shall delete my

    original post immediately.

  5. #15
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    Parser

    1. Don't be so so upset! We all make mistakes. With your UsingEnglish record of hundreds of extremely helpful, and accurate, posts, you can be forgiven one small slip.

    2. It's a pity that you removed your post. Discussion of mistakes can be useful for others.

    ...on page 271, he gives this quote from Shakespeare as a full [lexical] verb:

    Seeing that death, a necessary end, Will come when it will come.
    No. In paragraph 25.1.1 he writes about the full verb; from paragraph 25.1.2 onwards, he is discussing the auxiliary - your quotation comes from paragraph 25.2.1

    I just recently learned that you have your own grammar website. Your credentials are very impressive.
    Any Tom, Dick or Harry can set up his own website; that does not make them, or me, infallible. I don't think I am being either falsely flattering or insincerely modest when I say that I am pretty sure that most learners get more helpful, practical advice from your posts than they would from my website.
    Last edited by 5jj; 24-Feb-2011 at 18:50. Reason: typo

  6. #16
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Parser

    1. Don't be so so upset! We all make mistakes. With your UsingEnglish record of hundreds of extremely helpful, and accurate, posts, you can be forgiven one small slip.

    2. It's a pity that you removed your post. Discussion of mistakes can be useful for others.

    No. in paragraph 25.1.1 he writes about the full verb; from paragraph 25.1.2 onwards, he is discussing the auxiliary - your quotation comes from paragraph 25.2.1

    Any Tom, Dick or Harry can set up his own website; that does not make them, or me, infallible. I don't think I am being either falsely flattering or insincerely modest when I say that I am pretty sure that most learners get more helpful, practical advice from your posts than they would from my website.
    ***** NOT (Obviously!!!) A TEACHER *****


    Fivejedjon,

    (1) I need your guidance in learning how to read better, too.

    (2) In 25.2.1, he writes:

    The verb will primarily denotes will, volition. As will is popularly

    ascribed to lifeless things as well as to living things, we have, e.g.

    Murder will out.

    Seeing that death, a necessary end, Will come when it will come (Sh.).

    (1) I thought that when he writes "the verb will," he was referring to the

    full verb.

    (2) I thought that "Murder will out" was an example of the full verb.

    Thank you again for all your help.

  7. #17
    Allen165 is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Parser

    1. Don't be so so upset! We all make mistakes. With your UsingEnglish record of hundreds of extremely helpful, and accurate, posts, you can be forgiven one small slip.

    2. It's a pity that you removed your post. Discussion of mistakes can be useful for others.

    No. in paragraph 25.1.1 he writes about the full verb; from paragraph 25.1.2 onwards, he is discussing the auxiliary - your quotation comes from paragraph 25.2.1

    Any Tom, Dick or Harry can set up his own website; that does not make them, or me, infallible. I don't think I am being either falsely flattering or insincerely modest when I say that I am pretty sure that most learners get more helpful, practical advice from your posts than they would from my website.
    Could you give me the link to your website? I'd like to check it out.

  8. #18
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    In 'murder will out', meaning 'murder will become public (knowledge)' will is, once again, a modal auxiliary. In modern English, it is very rare to use a modal + full verb combination without actually using the full verb in this way, but you will occasionally hear, "I must away".

    A simple test is the third person -s ending. If it's there, it's a full verb, as in: He's a faith healer - he wills people well.

    If there is no -s ending, it's a modal: Death will come when it will come.

    This is not an infallible test if you are one of those who still use the present subjunctive, in which full verbs do not end in-s in the third person singular. Here is an example, using will=bequeath: I recommend that he will half of his estate to to his surviving sons, and half....

    The full verb uses DO for questions and negatives, the modal does not:

    Murder will not out.
    Murder don't will out. - Modal
    Death will not come.
    Death don't will come.- Modal
    He wills not people well. He doesn't will people well. - Full verb


    Last edited by 5jj; 24-Feb-2011 at 20:04. Reason: typo

  9. #19
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasmin165 View Post
    Could you give me the link to your website? I'd like to check it out.
    Gramorak - Homepage

  10. #20
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: will as a lexical verb

    Here's another solace for you, Parser. Someone recently spotted that on my website, (created by someone with' impressive credentials'!) , I wrote "He worked [...] in in England, Germany and Turkey between for nine years, and then settled down in England...".

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