[Grammar] Dare as a modal verb in the past

[Kotfor]

In this thread it is said that

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/35715-dare-normal-modal-verb.html

"B Dared you contradict her? <auxiliary verb>
In B, dared carries the past tense marker"

So, shall I take it as modal dare has its past form expressed by DARED?

Could you then explain to me the difference?

(1)I dared enter the room.
(2)I dare have entered the room.

(I think that modal verbs can easily take perfect infinititve as in (2)

 

[engee30]

In this thread it is said that

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/35715-dare-normal-modal-verb.html

"B Dared you contradict her? <auxiliary verb>
In B, dared carries the past tense marker"

So, shall I take it as modal dare has its past form expressed by DARED?

Could you then explain to me the difference?

(1)I dared enter the room.
(2)I dare have entered the room.

(I think that modal verbs can easily take perfect infinititve as in (2)

♥♦♣♠ NOT A TEACHER ♥♦♣♠
The modal verb dare doesn't normally take a perfect infinitive - the reason being that it is not the same as other modal verbs like could or should - the others can convey an idea of possibility, probability etc.; dare cannot.

 

[5jj]

The safest advice I can offer to learners is, "Do not use dare as a modal verb". In informal conversation we don't use dare much anyway, partcularly in the affirmative, even as a full verb; we prefer alternatives.

? I dared to cross the road.
I wasn't afraid to cross the road.
I plucked up my courage to cross the road.

The modal dare is so rarely used in the past, that it is almost true to say that the usage it is archaic

Dared you contradict her? Unnatural for most speakers.
I dared enter the room. Probably more natural with dared to.
I dare have entered the room. I cannot think of a situation in which this would be a natural, acceptable utterance.

 

[Kotfor]

What about affirmative sentences in the present? I heard that it's not very good to use dare in such sentences.

I dare (to) go there.

Is it true?

 

[engee30]

What about affirmative sentences in the present? I heard that it's not very good to use dare in such sentences.

I dare (to) go there.

Is it true?

:up: Yes, that's true. Just use other verbs that would convey the meaning of your choice.

 

[Raymott]

The modal dare is so rarely used in the past, that it is almost true to say that the usage it is archaic

I dare have entered the room. I cannot think of a situation in which this would be a natural, acceptable utterance.

True, but "I didn't dare enter the room" is quite acceptable.
"I didn't dare tell her what I really thought", etc.

 

[Kotfor]

What about the future tense with dare?


I will dare to dream of the future.

Is it ok to use it? I think there must be a modal aspect of will involved. Or is it not involved?

 

[Raymott]

What about the future tense with dare?

I will dare to dream of the future.
This is not right.

Is it ok to use it? I think there must be a modal aspect of will involved. Or is it not involved?

A: "Do you think she'll got out with him?"
B: "I don't think he will dare to ask her."

If in doubt, don't use 'dare'. There are always other ways of saying these things.

 

[Kotfor]

A: "Do you think she'll got out with him?"
B: "I don't think he will dare to ask her."

If in doubt, don't use 'dare'. There are always other ways of saying these things.

I am confused. Why is it wrong in my example and ok in yours?

 

[engee30]

I am confused. Why is it wrong in my example and ok in yours?

For the meaning of Raymott's sentence is negative; of yours not.

 

[Kotfor]

Is it not ok to use it in the FUTURE at all or is there a specific reason or factor which makes it infelicitous?

 

[Kotfor]

I can find in books such usage. Is it not idiomatic?

1) I will dare to dream of the future. I will remember that dreaming without action will come to nothing but disappointment. (Stephen Biddulph)

2) "I will dare to speak out," says Turgot. "The " laws recognized in our tribunals, on the subject " of the interest of money, are pernicious. (William Ogden Niles)

3) And from to-morrow, if I have sung, as I will sing, to-night, I will dare, and I dare now to tell you that I will dare, to But before I do dare that word, my own, let me tell you how very prominent I am! (Mitchell Kennerley)

 

[5jj]

I can find in books such usage. Is it not idiomatic?

1) I will dare to dream of the future. I will remember that dreaming without action will come to nothing but disappointment.
2) "I will dare to speak out," says Turgot. "The " laws recognized in our tribunals, on the subject " of the interest of money, are pernicious.
3) And from to-morrow, if I have sung, as I will sing, to-night, I will dare, and I dare now to tell you that I will dare, to But before I do dare that word, my own, let me tell you how very prominent I am!

It is not very idiomatic in modern English (and the third sentence is very contrived). You will, if you hunt long enough, find even more examples, but my advice, and Raymott's, is not to use 'dare' if you have any doubts at all.

 

[Raymott]

I can find in books such usage. Is it not idiomatic?

1) I will dare to dream of the future. I will remember that dreaming without action will come to nothing but disappointment. (Stephen Biddulph)

2) "I will dare to speak out," says Turgot. "The " laws recognized in our tribunals, on the subject " of the interest of money, are pernicious. (William Ogden Niles)

3) And from to-morrow, if I have sung, as I will sing, to-night, I will dare, and I dare now to tell you that I will dare, to But before I do dare that word, my own, let me tell you how very prominent I am! (Mitchell Kennerley)

These sentences (1 and 2) use the volitional sense of will, rather than the will of future tense. It's like saying affirmations (self-talk): "I will dare to be assertive; I will dare to ask her out."
This is different from the simple future meaning as in, "He will dare to ask her out tomorrow" which is rather meaningless, since no one can know that.

 

[Kotfor]

Here it is another question but it falls into the subject claimed in the title.

According to The English Verb by Palmer dare doens't have the past form such as DARED.

"modal dare can be used with past time reference though it cannot have any past tense marking", that is, there is no modal form dared."

What do you think of it?

 

[Raymott]

Here it is another question but it falls into the subject claimed in the title.

According to The English Verb by Palmer dare doens't have the past form such as DARED.

"modal dare can be used with past time reference though it cannot have any past tense marking", that is, there is no modal form dared."

What do you think of it?

I think it sounds wrong.
"I didn't dare tell her" = "I dared not tell her." But the second is uncommon these days. It's mostly used in the negative.

"On the present occasion, though I was hungry, I dared not eat my slice." Great Expectations, Dickens.
"Put the case, Pip, that here was one pretty little child out of the heap who could be saved; whom the father believed dead, and dared make no stir about" ibid.
A positive use: "How dared you to come betwixt me and a young woman I liked" ibid.

 

[5jj]

According to The English Verb by Palmer, dare doens't have the past form such as DARED.

"modal dare can be used with past time reference though it cannot have any past tense marking", that is, there is no modal form dared."
What do you think of it?

I agree with Palmer, but others don't. This is one of many reason that I suggest to students thay they do not use 'dare'.

 

[Tdol]

There are only 5 examples of will dare in the BNC. (COCA isn't working for me at the moment)

 

[5jj]

There are only 5 examples of will dare in the BNC. (COCA isn't working for me at the moment)

COCA gave me 39. Some of them were clearly future, others of this type:

Santas expect kids to tug their beards to ensure they're genuine. Others will dare Santa to name each reindeer .

 

[engee30]

I've got an impression that you're discussing two different verbs - dare as a modal verb, and dare as a transitive verb. The normal modal verb dare will never be accompanied by another modal. As for the other, it's perfectly fine for it to be used the way it is presented in the corpora.