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  1. #11
    ancor90 is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Some fifty years ago, I was corrected at school for using /f/ in 'have to'; this was supposedly the sign of an uneducated speaker. I shudder when I think of some of the artificial 'rules' I was taught in those days.

    I think that the total devoicing of /v/ in 'have to is a result of our (probably) subconscious feeling that the two words have and to are very closely associated as one idea (similar to must). In an utterance such as 'I've told you a thousand times', even though the /t/ follows immediately after the /v/, I don't think that it is fully devoiced.

    The close association of the two parts of 'have to' have led to the written forms of the word(s) hafter/hafta in dialogue that is spoken by supposedly less educated speakers.
    Interesting. If you go to

    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/have_to

    you see that /ˈhæf.tu/ is indeed the correct pronunciation in the US. The same devoicing seems to occur (and is also documented) with constructs like "it's".

    Also

    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hard

    lists "heart" as a homophone of "hard" in some dialects, which seems to support the idea that full devoicing can indeed occur.

  2. #12
    5jj's Avatar
    5jj is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    Quote Originally Posted by ancor90 View Post
    The same devoicing seems to occur (and is also documented) with constructs like "it's".
    It's interesting that the contracted form of has and is pronounced with the same voiced/unvoiced forms as the third person singular verb ending and the plural -s (and indeed the possessive 's and 's'). With these other /s/ and /z/ sounds, we cannot really say that the sound is basically /s/. but it is voiced after certain voiceless consonants (or that it is basically /z/, but it is devoiced after vowels and certain voiced consonants). With the contracted form of has and is, however, the basic sound is /z/.

    So, in answer to ancor90's original question, there is at least one consonant that can be, and is, fully devoiced.

  3. #13
    BobK's Avatar
    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Default Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    The song lyric springs to mind:

    'Swonderful, 'smarvellous, [ʧ]?*you should care for me.
    'Sawful nice etc.

    When I first heard this, I found it pretty hard to decipher. If it had been 'Zwonderful 'zmarvellous...' I'd probably still be wondering.

    b

    PS *This isn't a glottal stop; it's a question mark - I'm not sure if the [ʧ] is there.
    Last edited by BobK; 28-Feb-2011 at 22:07. Reason: Added PS

  4. #14
    ancor90 is offline Newbie
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    Question Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    Okay. As requested I've spent quite some time looking for, extracting, and uploading a couple of sound samples where I find it difficult to hear the voicing of a supposedly voiced consonant.


    1) In the first sample, "father-is-a-fairly-religious-man.mp3," I cannot hear any vocal chords vibrating when she says 'is'.

    2) In the second sample, "it's gonna be a felony charge on the three juveniles.mp3," I cannot hear any vocal chords vibrating in the last part of 'charge' - it sounds to me like /ˈʧɑɹʧ/ and not like /ˈʧɑɹʤ/. However, I can make out a slightly voiced /ʤ/ at the beginning of juvenile.

    3) In the third example, an excerpt from the beginning of the American television series "Fringe," it sounds to me like /fɹɪnʧ/ and not like /fɹɪndʒ/.

    However, if you go to dictionary.reference.com/browse/fringe and click on the speaker button to hear the word pronounced, I can make out a very clear /ʤ/ at the end.


    I'd really love to know if you can hear the voiced consonant in each of the three samples, or if the speakers do indeed (fully) devoice in the examples.


    Thanks.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  5. #15
    5jj's Avatar
    5jj is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    Quote Originally Posted by ancor90 View Post
    1) In the first sample, "father-is-a-fairly-religious-man.mp3," I cannot hear any vocal chords vibrating when she says 'is'. I hear /z/ there.

    2) In the second sample, "it's gonna be a felony charge on the three juveniles.mp3," I cannot hear any vocal chords vibrating in the last part of 'charge' - it sounds to me like /ˈʧɑɹʧ/ and not like /ˈʧɑɹʤ/. However, I can make out a slightly voiced /ʤ/ at the beginning of juvenile. I hear /ʤ/ in all three places.

    3) In the third example, an excerpt from the beginning of the American television series "Fringe," it sounds to me like /fɹɪnʧ/ and not like /fɹɪndʒ/. Once again, I hear /ʤ/.
    There is a possibility that I have convinced myself that I hear these sounds as voiced because I expect to hear this, but I am fairly sure that there is voicing there.

  6. #16
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    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Default Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    There is a possibility that I have convinced myself that I hear these sounds as voiced because I expect to hear this, but I am fairly sure that there is voicing there.
    Same here - although given the way phonemes affect expectations and so perception... that's just what 5jj said, but using big words, so I won't bother with a finite verb!

    b

    PS Generally, if you think about the mechanics of the thing, it takes quite an effort to devoice consonants between vowels (which are necessarily 'voiced' - that's what vowel means). Obviously you can though; but, in that context (VCV) the lazier change would be in the opposite direction (unvoiced -> voiced).
    Last edited by BobK; 01-Mar-2011 at 11:28. Reason: Added PS

  7. #17
    ancor90 is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    There is a possibility that I have convinced myself that I hear these sounds as voiced because I expect to hear this
    I know what you mean. I know that feeling from my own native tongue. I was pretty certain to hear a specific sound in a German word, until a non-native speaker told me that it isn't there, and after I listened closely he was right. I just expected it to be there (because it actually is there if you really emphasize the word), but it wasn't there when you didn't stress the word.

    However, in this case I'm almost convinced that you are indeed right, and my hearing is just flawed.

    Maybe I'm looking for the wrong cues?

    I'm really keen on getting this right.

    What has confused me, however, was that you said "I hear /ʤ/ in all three places.", when according to my dictionary it should only be in two places, at the end of "charge" and at the beginning of "juvenile." The beginning of charge should be voiceless. Did you also hear a /ʤ/ where there should be none?

    Could some one maybe give me some tips on how to better hear the voicing? The part that is so frustrating is that I usually do hear the difference between /s/ vs /z/ and /ʧ/ vs /ʤ/ quite clearly, but in some cases, like the ones I attached, I just can't make it out.

  8. #18
    5jj's Avatar
    5jj is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    Quote Originally Posted by ancor90 View Post
    What has confused me, however, was that you said "I hear /ʤ/ in all three places.", when according to my dictionary it should only be in two places, at the end of "charge" and at the beginning of "juvenile." The beginning of charge should be voiceless. Did you also hear a /ʤ/ where there should be none?
    No. Careless writing. Sorry.

  9. #19
    ancor90 is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    Could you maybe explain what to look for? How you distinguish voiced vs unvoiced in these examples?

  10. #20
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does full devoicing occur?

    Quote Originally Posted by ancor90 View Post
    Could you maybe explain what to look for? How you distinguish voiced vs unvoiced in these examples?
    I am trying to decide how I know. I'll come back when I have a helpful answer - if I find one.

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