This is the first time/Past Simpel/Past Perfect/Present Simple

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kotfor

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Ukrainian
Home Country
Belarus
Current Location
Ukraine
I don't see a significant difference. The problem lies in the combination of Past Simple and Present Perfect. So I don\t see how it is justified in the first sentence and is not correct in the second.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
I don't see a significant difference
Then you'll just have to accept that you don't see it.

There is a continuum in questions of correctness between what is clearly not English and what is clearly good English. In the middle there is sometimes a grey area, in which even teachers and writers cannot always agree.

At the un-English end we have: years since snow then snow first. No native speaker, even one who had never been to school, would utter those words. Further along the continuum we have: That were the first snow what we had in years. You will hear utterances like that, but they are not acceptable in any but the most informal writing.

At the clearly correct end, uttered while it us snowing, we have: This is the first time we have had snow for years.

In the middle we have:

1. That was the first time we had had snow for years.

2. Last week was the first time we had had snow for years.
3. That was the first time we had snow for years.

4. Last week was the first time we had snow for years.
5. That was the first time we have had snow for years.
6. Last week was the first time we have had snow for years.

I have no doubt at all that you will hear all these from native speakers. That does not necessarily mean that they are acceptable in the sense that educated speakers would write them. You frequently hear aint for isn’t/aren’t/hasn’t and even haven’t and, as Barb pointed out, I seen it. That you hear them does not make them correct.

#1 and #2, above, are fine. #3 and #4 can be heard commonly, but would disturb British readers who thought about their choice of words. (Actually, only a trained phonetician could say for sure whether someone had said we had or we’d had in casual conversation.)

#5 and #6 are, in my opinion, even more marginal. In both cases, if the speaker is thinking about a recent onset of snow, the utterances could be considered acceptable, especially if there are still signs of snow on the ground. However, without further context, that could be any past time, even many years ago, while ‘last week’, as Barb pointed out, is clearly recent.
 

Kotfor

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Ukrainian
Home Country
Belarus
Current Location
Ukraine
It is easy to avoid mistakes when you know why they are considered to be so, however, if the background of a mistake is not spotted then you can't avoid making it. I think this is the case here. It's not that I refuse to rely on your opinion it's just that I don't see and haven't seen anyone fully disclose the reasons why this is wrong or not an example of good English.

I don't understand how this combination of tenses is considered correct in a certain sentence while it is wrong in another one.

Past Simple + Present Perfect

Last week was the first time we have had snow in years. (OK)
That was the first time we have had snow in years. (Wrong)

I really tried to connect this issue with Last week/that was but I failed.
--------------------------------------------

As for this combination of tenses I have something to add for everyone to ponder over.

This is the first time I have watched this film. (I am still watching it)

Now, if I want to say it after I have finished watching it, would I use the same construction? I doubt.

That was the first time I have watched/had watched it.
--------------------------------------------
Another thing which I presuppose is that there might be a difference in meanings between

That was the first time I have watched it. (I have watched this film only once in my life)
That was the first time I had watched it. (There were more occurences om my watching this film after that first time when I saw it)
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Kotfor, I said in my last post, "There is a continuum in questions of correctness between what is clearly not English and what is clearly good English. In the middle there is sometimes a grey area, in which even teachers and writers cannot always agree."

That being the case with your problem, you are simply not going to get a clear answer. You can keep bringing up examples for the rest of your life. All you will find is that some are accepted by all native speakers, some are rejected by all native speakers, and some fall into the grey area.
 

Kotfor

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Ukrainian
Home Country
Belarus
Current Location
Ukraine
Let's leave out irrelevant sayings like "You can keep bringing up examples for the rest of your life." It doesn't contribute anything helpful.

I wanted to know what exactly was the core of the problem. I thought you considered this "Past Simple + Present Perfect" wrong. But I think that it's not the case. So I just don't understand what you find wrong in this sentence. I thought you would have been more specific on that but you weren't. Anyway thank you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top