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  1. #11
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hucky View Post
    This implies logically that if the transitive uses of have are not usually shortened, the shortened form is unusual and thus the exception. Being unusual is the very feature to define the term exception.
    Hucky, once again you are making big leaps. There is a gradual increase in the lack of normality from something not usually being done, through its occurrence being considered unusual, to that occurrence being considered an exception.
    The keyword here is though, which refers to the possibility of these forms in spite of the opposite rule.
    There is no 'rule'.
    Coming back to your point of departure: "I've some students who claim that. I've no idea who told them that..", I simply wonder why you can still not see why there are people like your students who take that well-founded position.
    My comments were intended to show, in a jocular fashion, that I believed your thoughts on the matter to be mistaken. The students who feel this are not taking a well-founded position, at least as far as BrE is concerned. There are speakers of BrE who contract have when it is used with a broadly possessive sense. 'I've a cat' is natural and acceptable BrE. It is less commonly heard than 'I have a cat', which, in turn, is less commonly heard than 'Ive got a cat'; this does not make it unnatural. These speakers would not use the contracted form when it use to denote actions or experiences - which is why I highlighted those words for you earlier. 'I have a bath every evening' is acceptable; 'I have got a bath every evening' and 'I've a bath every evening' are not. 'I've got a new bath', I have a new bath' and 'I've a new bath' are all acceptable in BrE.

  2. #12
    Hucky is offline Member
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    Dear Vidor and Raymott,

    It has been of particular value to learn what the situation is like concerning the American and Australian varieties of English. Best thanks for your briefing! With best wishes for the two of you over there in the faraway corners of the globe!

    Cheerio

    Hucky

  3. #13
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hucky View Post
    I have learnt with profound satisfaction that there is nothing to be objected to. What I just cannot see, however, is why you have highlighted in red those words. What do you mean to say by doing so? The quote goes as follows (with your emphasis):

    The ordinary transitive uses of have are not usually`shortened, though ve and `d forms are sometimes possible.
    You are missing the words actions and experiences before this part of the quote. In BrE, some people use I've as a main verb for possession, but you won't hear people saying I've a shower before breakfast

  4. #14
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    PS Fivejedjon, sorry I posted before I saw that there was a second page.

  5. #15
    Airone is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    I've been surprised over the years how much confusion "I've/I have" "I haven't/I don't have" always seems to evoke.

    My students are Italian and have gone through a school system which tells them that "I've a dog" "They haven't a car" and even "have you a lighter?" are normal English. I tell them that while these forms may be strictly speaking correct, no one that I know speaks like this. I could, I suppose, track down some people who do use the above forms, but my goal is to allow my students to communicate with the majority of English speakers they are going to come into contact with, not give them every conceivable dialect and permutation of English. I believe that the forms I have/I don't have/do you have? accomplish this goal better than the others.

  6. #16
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airone View Post
    My students are Italian and have gone through a school system which tells them that "I've a dog" "They haven't a car" and even "have you a lighter?" are normal English. I tell them that while these forms may be strictly speaking correct, no one that I know speaks like this. I could, I suppose, track down some people who do use the above forms, but my goal is to allow my students to communicate with the majority of English speakers they are going to come into contact with, not give them every conceivable dialect and permutation of English. I believe that the forms I have/I don't have/do you have? accomplish this goal better than the others.
    Well, that last sentence is a matter of opinion. While you may not have met anyone who uses 'have you a lighter?', there are still quite a few of us around.

    From what you have written, it appears that you do not expose your students to have got. That is probably the most common form in spoken BrE, hardly a minor dialect. Should they not be exposed to that, even if they don't use it? As Italians, they are, after all, closer to the UK than the USA. It could well be that "the majority of English speakers they are going to come into contact with" will be speakers of BrE.

    Certainly for your students to use the auxiliary DO with the full verb HAVE is fine, though have you checked on whether there is a required form for your students to use? I think it would be unreasonable if such forms as 'I don't have' were to be penalised in an examination, but they could be.

  7. #17
    Hucky is offline Member
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Hucky, once again you are making big leaps. There is a gradual increase in the lack of normality from something not usually being done, through its occurrence being considered unusual, to that occurrence being considered an exception. There is no 'rule'. My comments were intended to show, in a jocular fashion, that I believed your thoughts on the matter to be mistaken. The students who feel this are not taking a well-founded position, at least as far as BrE is concerned. There are speakers of BrE who contract have when it is used with a broadly possessive sense. 'I've a cat' is natural and acceptable BrE. It is less commonly heard than 'I have a cat', which, in turn, is less commonly heard than 'Ive got a cat'; this does not make it unnatural. These speakers would not use the contracted form when it use to denote actions or experiences - which is why I highlighted those words for you earlier. 'I have a bath every evening' is acceptable; 'I have got a bath every evening' and 'I've a bath every evening' are not. 'I've got a new bath', I have a new bath' and 'I've a new bath' are all acceptable in BrE.
    When I sent you my message (thread: I hope you ...) last night, I didn`t notice that you had written to me again. To be honest, I`m glad to have learnt more about you: that you really meant something in a jocular way. As an Englishman you would have disappointed me not to see the joker deep inside the very heart of your being since there is no humour like the one in the British Isles. But you must admit that you haven`t given me too much opportunity so far to realize that trait of yours.

    Hucky

  8. #18
    Airone is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    All valid points, ones which I have considered.

    I'm teaching survival English to adults on a limited schedule so I necessarily have to simplify and excise some of the finer points of English grammar. The accent on my syllabus is to keep it lively and keep it moving, not to drill grammar forms endlessly.

    I'm aware that some people use the "have you a...?" question form and I tell my students exactly what I wrote here: that it is strictly speaking correct but I know no one who uses it. This includes people from the US, Canada, Australia, England, Ireland, and Wales that I know or have known. I think I've met two people in my whole life who have used this form. Also, Italians in particular love this form because Italian public school language teaching is modeled on English from 50 years ago. I try to get them away from that. If they strongly prefer "have you a cat?" that's fine with me, as long as they know that they'll be in the minority. So, no offense to anyone who uses this form, but I tell my (adult) students my opinion on the matter and it's up to them whether to follow my advice or not.

    I do make them aware of "have got" and I make extensive use of recordings so it appears repeatedly. They understand it, which is sufficient for me: teaching the proper use of have got vs. have, especially in the short answer forms ("yes I have got" crops up often) takes up too much time (I typically have 25 or so lessons per class), therefore I make sure they understand "have got" but are proficient in use with "have", since "have" has future, past, and other forms that "have got" lacks.

    I incorporate audio from speakers from everywhere including BrE. Where feasible, I teach alternate ways of saying things. But I make no secret that I'm American and that my teaching will inevitably reflect this. It's a bit like not knowing anything about cooking and taking lessons from an Italian. What you'll be learning will be influenced by your Italian teacher and there are differences from French cooking (which some consider to be superior). Once you get to a certain degree of skill in knife handling, cooking techniques and so on you can decide to specialize in Italian or French or Spanish cuisine. But most of my students are in the "never really handled a knife" stage of their English careers so I teach them a simplified version of English based on what I know exhaustively rather than every single permutation, sort of like a one-week cooking course rather than a two-year culinary degree.

    Finally, I and my students work for a US-based company so I have a solid reason to teach AmE.


    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Well, that last sentence is a matter of opinion. While you may not have met anyone who uses 'have you a lighter?', there are still quite a few of us around.

    From what you have written, it appears that you do not expose your students to have got. That is probably the most common form in spoken BrE, hardly a minor dialect. Should they not be exposed to that, even if they don't use it? As Italians, they are, after all, closer to the UK than the USA. It could well be that "the majority of English speakers they are going to come into contact with" will be speakers of BrE.

    Certainly for your students to use the auxiliary DO with the full verb HAVE is fine, though have you checked on whether there is a required form for your students to use? I think it would be unreasonable if such forms as 'I don't have' were to be penalised in an examination, but they could be.

  9. #19
    Hucky is offline Member
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    Dear Airone,

    Just in brief, your lines contain an interesting phenomenon that I have noticed two or three times in previous American English texts. It is all about this: (quote from your text, second paragraph)

    This includes people from the US, Canada, Australia, England, Ireland, and Wales that I know or have known.
    (my emphasis)

    It seems as if you use the present perfect tense to refer to the past. Otherwise the present simple (I know) would be included in the second verb form as the present perfect means something like I once knew and I still know. Is my interpretation of your wording correct? Is this really what you intended to say?

    I`d be very grateful and curious to learn from you about it. Best thanks in advance!

    Greetings

    Hucky

  10. #20
    Airone is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hucky View Post
    It seems as if you use the present perfect tense to refer to the past. Otherwise the present simple (I know) would be included in the second verb form as the present perfect means something like I once knew and I still know. Is my interpretation of your wording correct? Is this really what you intended to say?

    Hucky
    Interesting question, and a tricky one to answer.

    When I say "the people I have known" I'm referring to my life experience and its effect on the opinion that I have now. Exactly When I knew these people isn't important, but it did happen at some point up to and including now.

    Compare: "I knew a lot of people in university" (the implication is that now I'm not in university, or I don't know a lot of people, or both.)

    "I've known a lot of people who use 'do you have' but not 'have you'" (the point when I knew the people, or even if I still know them is not important.)

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