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  1. #11
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: would - what kind of usage is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kotfor View Post
    Again I find similarity with

    The door wouldn't open.
    He wouldn't stop the car.


    The only stronghold which was backing me off is that I never heard it used in affirmative sentences. May be this is an example of this usage though?
    It's possible in affirmative sentences:

    1. The door would stick when I tried to open it.
    2. The engine would keep cutting out when I stopped at traffic lights.

    However,this is slightly different from the sentence we have been discussing. We can see the difference in these two examples:

    3. My father knew that she was unsuitable, but he would marry her. Then he was upset when she left him two weeks later. (= (roughly) insisted on)

    4. It is typical of my father to do something thoughtless like that. He would marry her on a day when I couldn't be there. (stressing the typical behaviour).

    Different intonation in speech brings out this difference in meaning.

  2. #12
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: would - what kind of usage is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    "Your father married Joan yesterday. Why weren't you there?"
    "It would have to happen tomorow. I was planning to visit Dad, but I had no idea he was going to marry her this year. If he'd told me, I'd be there now."
    I think that here the only natural response is: "It would have had to happen tomorrow". I know we normally associate this structure with a past counterfactual situation, but it is possible here. "It would have to happen tomorrow" allows the possibility, however remote, that it can happen tomorrow. We know it can't, because it has already happened.
    I thought in this situation both "would have had to" and "would have to" could be justified. Thanks for this.

  3. #13
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: would - what kind of usage is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    I thought in this situation both "would have had to" and "would have to" could be justified. Thanks for this.
    I am fairly sure that I am right, but it would be helpful to see what others think about this. We are more into the realm of interpretaion than absolutes here.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: would - what kind of usage is it?

    Well I have been grubbing round my books, and come up with the following, from Huddleston, Rodney & Pullum, Geoffrey K (2002) The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language:

    Past time would

    1. I had no money on me, but he wouldn’t lend me any. [volition. [...] Volitional would is normally excluded from affirmative contexts with singulary dynamic situations.

    2. Whenever he heard her coming he would quickly put out his pipe [propensity. This normally involves a serial state, but there is a use of would which can be regarded as a special case of the propensity use and where we do find singulary actualisation in an affirmative context see next example:]

    3. HE WOULD call round just when I wanted an early night. [propensity. The modal is always stressed – with an emotive effect […] The connection with the ordinary case of propensity is that the event is presented as typical. What it is typical of is not expressed, but we infer something like ‘typical of the inconvenient/ annoying things that he does or that happen (to me)’ ]

    4. Only a few months later their love would change to hate. [futurity]

    I have highlighted in blue the relevant words. It seems to me that #3 is very close to Kotfor's original example.. What do you think?

  5. #15
    JMurray is online now Key Member
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    Default Re: would - what kind of usage is it?

    I've been following this thread with interest and I thought it worthwhile to highlight a little more how crucial the intonation is in this case.

    As Fivejj and the Cambridge Grammar have indicated:
    "Different intonation in speech brings out this difference in meaning".
    "The modal is always stressed – with an emotive effect".

    Intonation changes: "He would have to come round on a Friday"
    from "It is most practical and convenient that he comes on a Friday"
    to "How irritating and inconvenient that he came (or 'is coming') on a Friday!"

    It's in the particular way that "would" is stressed, the irritated or resigned tone, the implied (or actual) rolling of the eyes.

    Regarding the stuck door, this sentence incorporates the meaning being discussed.
    "Last night the house caught fire and I couldn't get out, that old door would have to jam right at that moment!"
    That is, "how typical of that door .. of my luck .. of life in general!"

    not a teacher
    Last edited by JMurray; 27-Mar-2011 at 05:00.

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