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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    I do, however, have a problem with 'much so'. I agree with you, Soup, that assimilation there doesn't sound like English. What I don't see is why. It seems to me that in both 'church' and 'much', the word-final /ch/ is unreleased.
    The onset-cluster seems to hold the key:

    'Chu
    rch Street' (/tʃ#ʃtr/) progressive assimilation
    'Bookish
    style' (/ʃ#ʃt/) progressive assimilation
    'much so' (
    #s) no change


    Let's test it:


    Church Serene (
    /tʃ#ʃr)
    much stress (
    /tʃ#ʃt)


    What do you think? I am bias at this point.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    The onset-cluster seems to hold the key:

    'Church Street' (/tʃ#ʃtr/) progressive assimilation
    'Bookish
    style' (/ʃ#ʃt/) progressive assimilation
    'much so' (
    #s) no change

    Let's test it:

    Church Serene (
    /tʃ#ʃr)
    much stress (
    /tʃ#ʃt)


    What do you think? I am bias at this point.
    Thanks for your thought.

    It seems to work with /st/ (and I now remember, far too late for my original post, that I used to use Irish stew as an example). It also seems to work with /sk/ (much scandal) and /sp/ (much sport). What do you think about a voiced consonanant in the second position - much smarter, much sneakier? I don't trust my own judgment at the moment.

    I am not sure about the 'Church Serene'. I don't think I would assimilate /s/ to /ʃ/; but then I think I always have a vowel in between /s/ and /r/ in 'serene'. Both LPD and the Cambridege English Pronouncing Dictionary give transcriptions only with a vowel - /ɪ/ or /ə/. When there is a vowel there, then it would appear to fit in with what you suggested. (If there isn't, it may still fit!)

    Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America? If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation? The second question would perhaps have some connection with my question about voiced consonants in the first paragraph.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    What do you think about a voiced consonant in the second position - much smarter, much sneakier? I don't trust my own judgment at the moment.
    The presence of the nasal (or rather, the anticipation of airflow through the nasal cavity) seems to stop assimilation from taking place.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America? If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation? The second question would perhaps have some connection with my question about voiced consonants in the first paragraph.
    Sorry. I do not know which second question you mean and which question of yours you are referring to in which first paragraph. Could you be more specific?

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    The presence of the nasal (or rather, the anticipation of airflow through the nasal cavity) seems to stop assimilation from taking place.
    That sounds reasonable.

    Sorry. I do not know which second question you mean and which question of yours you are referring to in which first paragraph. Could you be more specific?
    Well, I suppose "Thanks for your thought" is really the first paragraph. Let me rephrase: "The second question would perhaps have some connection with my question about voiced consonants in the first paragraph of the body of the letter".

    As to the second question, I thought that this was reasonably clear, there being only two questions in that paragraph. However, I have now numbered them for clarity:
    1.
    Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America?
    2.
    If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation?
    The second question would perhaps have some connection with my question about voiced consonants in the first paragraph (of the body of the letter).

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post

    1.
    Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America? The /r/ is vocalic in my dialect (I can't speak for North American).
    2.
    If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation? How does that come into play? As you can see, I am still not clear on what it is you are asking.
    Soup

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon

    1.
    Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America? The /r/ is vocalic in my dialect (I can't speak for North American).
    2.
    If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation? How does that come into play? As you can see, I am still not clear on what it is you are asking.
    Soup

    1. Now I am not clear. I understood a vocalic r to be the sound heard in words such as work [ɝ], teacher], part [ɑ˞], etc in many North American dialects. In your post #11, giving examples of assimilation you noted Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr), which suggested to me that you might pronounce serene , when there is no assimilation, as /sri:n/. Hence my question 1, which you quoted above. You now tell me that in your dialect the /r/ is vocalic, which suggests to me /səri:n/ or /sɚi:n/ rather than /sri:n/ (unassimilated), and /ʃəri:n/ or /ʃɚi:n/ rather than/ʃri:n/ (assimilated).

    2. I am sorry, but I really cannot see how I can make my question much clearer. I was surprised at the /sri:n/ pronunciation, one I had not heard before. I was also surprised at the assimiliation that you noted in Church Serene. As I had already give incorrect information (post #4), and said that I no longer trusted my own judgement (post #12), and as you had said I am bias (post #11), I was asking for you to confirm that there was assimiliation in your dialect in 'Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr)'.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post

    1. Now I am not clear. I understood a vocalic r to be the sound heard in words such as work [ɝ], teacher], part [ɑ˞], etc in many North American dialects.
    What you have described are r-colored vowels, not vocalic /r/.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post

    In your post #11, giving examples of assimilation you noted Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr), which suggested to me that you might pronounce serene , when there is no assimilation, as /sri:n/.
    That's correct. My pronunciation of <r> in the word serene is vocalic: it is not an r-colored vowel. More clearly, I do not pronounce serene with an epenthetic vowel ([səri:n]), nor do I pronounce it with an r-colored vowel ([sɚi:n]).


    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    I was asking for you to confirm that there was assimiliation in your dialect in 'Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr)'.
    Yes, there is, at least in fast speech. Does that help?

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Soup: What you have described are r-colored vowels, not vocalic /r/. [] My pronunciation of <r> in the word serene is vocalic: it is not an r-colored vowel. More clearly, I do not pronounce serene with an epenthetic vowel ([səri:n]), nor do I pronounce it with an r-colored vowel ([sɚi:n]).
    5jj: My understanding came from the only references I was able to find, which suggested that vocalic r, and r-coloured vowels were the same thing. So what is a vocalic r? and what is the IPA symbol for it? You used the symbol r, which I know as the IPA symbol for voiced alveolar trill, and the symbol used in BrE phonemic transcription for a voiced post-alveolar approximant.

    Fjj: I was asking for you to confirm that there was assimiliation in your dialect in 'Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr)'.
    Soup: Yes, there is, at least in fast speech.
    5jj. Thank you.


    (From another post):
    5jj:1. Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America?
    Soup: The /r/ is vocalic in my dialect (I can't speak for North American).

    I had assumed that your home country being Canada, you spoke a North American dialect.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    I had assumed that your home country being Canada, you spoke a North American dialect.
    I do. Your point being...? (This is becoming rather tedious.)

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    This is becoming rather tedious.
    Quite. Time to stop.

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