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  1. #1
    Ermaks is offline Newbie
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    Question Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Greetings!

    Take a look at this sentence :

    Well, supermarkets care. So much so that they....

    a bit of context : Supermarkets care what their customers buy...

    The transcription :

    /weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌsəʊ / ət eɪ.../

    If there is assimilation :

    /weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌʃəʊ / ət eɪ.../

    But it sounds as if it was saying "so much show" :

    Well, supermarkets care. So much show that they....


    Is it ok if there is assimilation??

    Ernesto

  2. #2
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    What makes you think there is assimilation here?

  3. #3
    Ermaks is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    What makes you think there is assimilation here?

    It's a kind of assimilation for the /s/ to become /ʃ/ whenever it is followed by /ʃ/ or /j/, which is called regressive assimilation(the first sound is affected by the second one). For example :

    Her voice shook /hə vɔɪs ʃʊk/ --> assimilation / hə vɔɪʃ ʃʊk/

    s jɪə/ ---> / ɪʃ jɪə/

    s jʌŋ mn/ ----> /ɪʃ jʌŋ mn/


    Sometimes it can be, however, progressive, so that the first element affects the second one as in :

    bookish style /bʊkɪʃ staɪl/ /bʊkɪʃ ʃtaɪl/

    Therefore, wouldn't be the same case for "Much so", the difference here is that the /ʃ/ plays the role of an affricate with /t/ --> /tʃ/.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    I agree with your examples of regressive assimilation. I have not heard the progressive assimilation you refer to in your last example, bookish style. It doesn't happen in my dialect.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ermaks View Post
    Sometimes it can be, however, progressive, so that the first element affects the second one as in :
    bookish style /bʊkɪʃ staɪl/ /bʊkɪʃ ʃtaɪl/
    Therefore, wouldn't be the same case for "Much so", the difference here is that the /ʃ/ plays the role of an affricate with /t/ --> /tʃ/.
    Hola Ernesto,

    I havent heard of that assimilation either. According to the book “English Transcription Course” by Maria Lecumberri and J. A. Maidment, theres only one type of progressive assimilation:

    "Alveolar syllabic nasal progressive place assimilation

    The alveolar syllabic nasal /n/ may become bilabial /m/ or velar /ŋ/ when preceded by a bilabial or velar plosive in the same word and followed by a consonant in the same word or the next word or by a pause.
    Examples:

    open /əʊpən/ - - > /əʊpn/ - - > /əʊpm/

    bacon /beɪkən/ - - > /beɪkn/ - - > /beɪkŋ/"

  6. #6
    Ermaks is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    I agree with your examples of regressive assimilation. I have not heard the progressive assimilation you refer to in your last example, bookish style. It doesn't happen in my dialect.
    Quote Originally Posted by mara_ce View Post
    Hola Ernesto,

    I havent heard of that assimilation either. According to the book “English Transcription Course” by Maria Lecumberri and J. A. Maidment, theres only one type of progressive assimilation:

    "Alveolar syllabic nasal progressive place assimilation"

    Hi there and sorry for the delay.After reading that you haven't heard of such assimilation, I started to do some online research about it.To my surprise, I didn't manage to actually find anything about progressive assimilation for the /s/ to /ʃ/. I went through quite many Phonetics & Phonology related websites, but didn't find anything about it.

    I took a look at the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary's Assimilation note and it states that it has only got regressive assimilation.

    However, the notes I was given by my Phonetic's teacher included this type of assimilation.

    I think... I'm just going to ask around about the existence of such assimilation. Let's see what does John Wells say about it .

    Thanks for the replies. I'll let you know if I find anything about the matter.

    Ernesto

  7. #7
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ermaks View Post
    .To my surprise, I didn't manage to actually find anything about progressive assimilation for the /s/ to /ʃ/. I went through quite many Phonetics & Phonology related websites, but didn't find anything about it.[...]

    However, the notes I was given by my Phonetics teacher included this type of assimilation.
    There is /s/ to /ʃ/ assimilation - as in 'this shop'. That is not what your original question was about.

  8. #8
    Ermaks is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    There is /s/ to /ʃ/ assimilation - as in 'this shop'. That is not what your original question was about.
    I know there is. But that's ,again, regressive assimilation, and I was talking about Progressive assimilation, where the first sound influences the second one to change.

    Nevertheless, after asking around, I came to the conclusion that it is not that this type of assimilation just doesn't exist, as John Wells states : "This type of assimilation is not commonly heard,as far as I am aware."

    I asked the same to "La mansion del ingles", and I was given the same answer.

    Well, I guess that says it all, doesn't it ?

    Regards

    E
    Last edited by Ermaks; 02-Apr-2011 at 19:21.

  9. #9
    Soup's Avatar
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ermaks View Post

    The transcription :

    /weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌsəʊ / ət eɪ.../

    If there is assimilation :

    /weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌʃəʊ / ət eɪ.../

    But it sounds as if it was saying "so much show" :

    Well, supermarkets care. So much show that they....


    Is it ok if there is assimilation??
    If you are asking if assimilation is possible, notably RP: Progressive assimilation (a common term used in Phonology); e.g., Shut []our mouth!; Church [ʃ]treet Source: p.91, then, yes, it is possible, but it is rare as it occurs only in certain environments. Let's take a closer look at the above examples to see if your example (səʊ mʌʃəʊ) fits the pattern:


    • shut your -> shut []r


    In that example, [t] is articulated yet unreleased (this will be important later on) and /y/ becomes [
    ] by progressive assimilation. Then again, we expect that from /y/, a sonorant, but not from /s/, a consonant. That is, we expect /y/ to strengthen, but not /s/. Which is to say, the example above does not provide support enough for ʃəʊ.

    In looking now at the second example, below, wherein s becomes [
    ʃ], a perfect example of progressive assimilation across a word-boundary:


    • church street -> church [ʃt]reet


    This is what I hear: word-final <ch> is articulated, yet unreleased, and /s/ becomes [
    ʃ]. We saw this pattern with the first example as well. In applying that to your example (səʊ mʌʃəʊ), that is, articulating word-final <ch> yet leaving it unreleased, it doesn't sound like English.

    In short, while progressive assimilation does indeed occur across a word-boundary in English, although rarely, your example doesn't fit the pattern.
    Last edited by Soup; 05-Apr-2011 at 10:36.

  10. #10
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post

    In looking now at the second example, below, wherein s becomes [
    ʃ], a perfect example of progressive assimilation across a word-boundary:


    • church street -> church [ʃt]reet


    This is what I hear: word-final <ch> is articulated, yet unreleased, and /s/ becomes [
    ʃ]. We saw this pattern with the first example as well. In applying that to your example (səʊ mʌʃəʊ), that is, articulating word-final <ch> yet leaving it unreleased, it doesn't sound like English.
    Interesting. Thanks for that, Soup. I had not encountered the 'church street' example before - or at least, not thought about it. My apologies, Ermaks, for my misinformation in post #4. It appears that /bʊkɪʃ staɪl/ /bʊkɪʃ ʃtaɪl/ is possible.

    I do, however, have a problem with 'much so'. I agree with you, Soup, that assimilation there doesn't sound like English. What I don't see is why. It seems to me that in both 'church' and 'much', the word-final /ch/ is unreleased.

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