Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

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Ermaks

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Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

Greetings!

Take a look at this sentence :

Well, supermarkets care. So much so that they....

a bit of context : Supermarkets care what their customers buy...

The transcription :

/weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌsəʊ / ðət ðeɪ.../

If there is assimilation :

/weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌʃəʊ / ðət ðeɪ.../

But it sounds as if it was saying "so much show" :

Well, supermarkets care. So much show that they....


Is it ok if there is assimilation??

Ernesto
 

5jj

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

What makes you think there is assimilation here?
 

Ermaks

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

What makes you think there is assimilation here?


It's a kind of assimilation for the /s/ to become /ʃ/ whenever it is followed by /ʃ/ or /j/, which is called regressive assimilation(the first sound is affected by the second one). For example :

Her voice shook /hə vɔɪs ʃʊk/ --> assimilation / hə vɔɪʃ ʃʊk/

/ðɪs jɪə/ ---> / ðɪʃ jɪə/

/ðɪs jʌŋ mæn/ ----> /ðɪʃ jʌŋ mæn/


Sometimes it can be, however, progressive, so that the first element affects the second one as in :

bookish style /bʊkɪʃ staɪl/ /bʊkɪʃ ʃtaɪl/

Therefore, wouldn't be the same case for "Much so", the difference here is that the /ʃ/ plays the role of an affricate with /t/ --> /tʃ/.
 

5jj

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

I agree with your examples of regressive assimilation. I have not heard the progressive assimilation you refer to in your last example, bookish style. It doesn't happen in my dialect.
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

Sometimes it can be, however, progressive, so that the first element affects the second one as in :
bookish style /bʊkɪʃ staɪl/ /bʊkɪʃ ʃtaɪl/
Therefore, wouldn't be the same case for "Much so", the difference here is that the /ʃ/ plays the role of an affricate with /t/ --> /tʃ/.
Hola Ernesto,

I haven´t heard of that assimilation either. According to the book “English Transcription Course” by Maria Lecumberri and J. A. Maidment, there´s only one type of progressive assimilation:

"Alveolar syllabic nasal progressive place assimilation

The alveolar syllabic nasal /n/ may become bilabial /m/ or velar /ŋ/ when preceded by a bilabial or velar plosive in the same word and followed by a consonant in the same word or the next word or by a pause.
Examples:

open /əʊpən/ - - > /əʊpn/ - - > /əʊpm/

bacon /beɪkən/ - - > /beɪkn/ - - > /beɪkŋ/"
 

Ermaks

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

I agree with your examples of regressive assimilation. I have not heard the progressive assimilation you refer to in your last example, bookish style. It doesn't happen in my dialect.

Hola Ernesto,

I haven´t heard of that assimilation either. According to the book “English Transcription Course” by Maria Lecumberri and J. A. Maidment, there´s only one type of progressive assimilation:

"Alveolar syllabic nasal progressive place assimilation"


Hi there and sorry for the delay.After reading that you haven't heard of such assimilation, I started to do some online research about it.To my surprise, I didn't manage to actually find anything about progressive assimilation for the /s/ to /ʃ/. I went through quite many Phonetics & Phonology related websites, but didn't find anything about it.

I took a look at the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary's Assimilation note and it states that it has only got regressive assimilation.

However, the notes I was given by my Phonetic's teacher included this type of assimilation.

I think... I'm just going to ask around about the existence of such assimilation. Let's see what does John Wells say about it :-|.

Thanks for the replies. I'll let you know if I find anything about the matter.

Ernesto
 

5jj

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

.To my surprise, I didn't manage to actually find anything about progressive assimilation for the /s/ to /ʃ/. I went through quite many Phonetics & Phonology related websites, but didn't find anything about it.[...]

However, the notes I was given by my Phonetics teacher included this type of assimilation.
There is /s/ to /ʃ/ assimilation - as in 'this shop'. That is not what your original question was about.
 

Ermaks

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

There is /s/ to /ʃ/ assimilation - as in 'this shop'. That is not what your original question was about.

I know there is. But that's ,again, regressive assimilation, and I was talking about Progressive assimilation, where the first sound influences the second one to change.

Nevertheless, after asking around, I came to the conclusion that it is not that this type of assimilation just doesn't exist, as John Wells states : "This type of assimilation is not commonly heard,as far as I am aware."

I asked the same to "La mansion del ingles", and I was given the same answer.

Well, I guess that says it all, doesn't it ?

Regards

E :up:
 
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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

The transcription :

/weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌsəʊ / ðət ðeɪ.../

If there is assimilation :

/weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌʃəʊ / ðət ðeɪ.../

But it sounds as if it was saying "so much show" :

Well, supermarkets care. So much show that they....


Is it ok if there is assimilation??
If you are asking if assimilation is possible, notably RP: Progressive assimilation (a common term used in Phonology); e.g., Shut []our mouth!; Church [ʃ]treet Source: p.91, then, yes, it is possible, but it is rare as it occurs only in certain environments. Let's take a closer look at the above examples to see if your example (səʊ mʌʃəʊ) fits the pattern:


  • shut your -> shut []r

In that example, [t] is articulated yet unreleased (this will be important later on) and /y/ becomes [
] by progressive assimilation. Then again, we expect that from /y/, a sonorant, but not from /s/, a consonant. That is, we expect /y/ to strengthen, but not /s/. Which is to say, the example above does not provide support enough for ʃəʊ.

In looking now at the second example, below, wherein s becomes [
ʃ], a perfect example of progressive assimilation across a word-boundary:


  • church street -> church [ʃt]reet

This is what I hear: word-final <ch> is articulated, yet unreleased, and /s/ becomes [
ʃ]. We saw this pattern with the first example as well. In applying that to your example (səʊ mʌʃəʊ), that is, articulating word-final <ch> yet leaving it unreleased, it doesn't sound like English.

In short, while progressive assimilation does indeed occur across a word-boundary in English, although rarely, your example doesn't fit the pattern.
 
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5jj

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.


In looking now at the second example, below, wherein s becomes [
ʃ], a perfect example of progressive assimilation across a word-boundary:


  • church street -> church [ʃt]reet

This is what I hear: word-final <ch> is articulated, yet unreleased, and /s/ becomes [
ʃ]. We saw this pattern with the first example as well. In applying that to your example (səʊ mʌʃəʊ), that is, articulating word-final <ch> yet leaving it unreleased, it doesn't sound like English.
Interesting. Thanks for that, Soup. I had not encountered the 'church street' example before - or at least, not thought about it. My apologies, Ermaks, for my misinformation in post #4. It appears that /bʊkɪʃ staɪl/ /bʊkɪʃ ʃtaɪl/ is possible.

I do, however, have a problem with 'much so'. I agree with you, Soup, that assimilation there doesn't sound like English. What I don't see is why. It seems to me that in both 'church' and 'much', the word-final /ch/ is unreleased.
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

I do, however, have a problem with 'much so'. I agree with you, Soup, that assimilation there doesn't sound like English. What I don't see is why. It seems to me that in both 'church' and 'much', the word-final /ch/ is unreleased.
The onset-cluster seems to hold the key:

'Chu
rch Street' (/tʃ#ʃtr/) progressive assimilation
'Bookish
style' (/ʃ#ʃt/) progressive assimilation
'much so' (
#s) no change


Let's test it:


Church Serene (
/tʃ#ʃr)
much stress (
/tʃ#ʃt)


What do you think? I am bias at this point.
 

5jj

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

The onset-cluster seems to hold the key:

'Church Street' (/tʃ#ʃtr/) progressive assimilation
'Bookish
style' (/ʃ#ʃt/) progressive assimilation
'much so' (
#s) no change

Let's test it:

Church Serene (
/tʃ#ʃr)
much stress (
/tʃ#ʃt)


What do you think? I am bias at this point.
Thanks for your thought.

It seems to work with /st/ (and I now remember, far too late for my original post, that I used to use Irish stew as an example). It also seems to work with /sk/ (much scandal) and /sp/ (much sport). What do you think about a voiced consonanant in the second position - much smarter, much sneakier? I don't trust my own judgment at the moment.

I am not sure about the 'Church Serene'. I don't think I would assimilate /s/ to /ʃ/; but then I think I always have a vowel in between /s/ and /r/ in 'serene'. Both LPD and the Cambridege English Pronouncing Dictionary give transcriptions only with a vowel - /ɪ/ or /ə/. When there is a vowel there, then it would appear to fit in with what you suggested. (If there isn't, it may still fit!)

Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America? If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation? The second question would perhaps have some connection with my question about voiced consonants in the first paragraph.
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

What do you think about a voiced consonant in the second position - much smarter, much sneakier? I don't trust my own judgment at the moment.
The presence of the nasal (or rather, the anticipation of airflow through the nasal cavity) seems to stop assimilation from taking place.

Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America? If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation? The second question would perhaps have some connection with my question about voiced consonants in the first paragraph.
Sorry. I do not know which second question you mean and which question of yours you are referring to in which first paragraph. Could you be more specific?
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

The presence of the nasal (or rather, the anticipation of airflow through the nasal cavity) seems to stop assimilation from taking place.
That sounds reasonable.

Sorry. I do not know which second question you mean and which question of yours you are referring to in which first paragraph. Could you be more specific?
Well, I suppose "Thanks for your thought" is really the first paragraph. Let me rephrase: "The second question would perhaps have some connection with my question about voiced consonants in the first paragraph of the body of the letter".

As to the second question, I thought that this was reasonably clear, there being only two questions in that paragraph. However, I have now numbered them for clarity:
1.
Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America?
2.
If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation?
The second question would perhaps have some connection with my question about voiced consonants in the first paragraph (of the body of the letter).
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.


1.
Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America? The /r/ is vocalic in my dialect (I can't speak for North American).
2.
If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation? How does that come into play? As you can see, I am still not clear on what it is you are asking.
Soup
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

fivejedjon said:
[FONT=&quot]
1. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America? The /r/ is vocalic in my dialect (I can't speak for North American).
2.
If it is, then are you sure there is assimilation? How does that come into play? As you can see, I am still not clear on what it is you are asking. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Soup[/FONT]

1. Now I am not clear. I understood a vocalic ‘r’ to be the sound heard in words such as work [ɝ], teacher], part [ɑ˞], etc in many North American dialects. In your post #11, giving examples of assimilation you noted “Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr)”, which suggested to me that you might pronounce ‘serene’ , when there is no assimilation, as /sri:n/. Hence my question 1, which you quoted above. You now tell me that in your dialect the /r/ is vocalic, which suggests to me /səri:n/ or /sɚi:n/ rather than /sri:n/ (unassimilated), and /ʃəri:n/ or /ʃɚi:n/ rather than/ʃri:n/ (assimilated).

2. I am sorry, but I really cannot see how I can make my question much clearer. I was surprised at the /sri:n/ pronunciation, one I had not heard before. I was also surprised at the assimiliation that you noted in ‘Church Serene’. As I had already give incorrect information (post #4), and said that I no longer trusted my own judgement (post #12), and as you had said “I am bias” (post #11), I was asking for you to confirm that there was assimiliation in your dialect in 'Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr)'.
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.


1. Now I am not clear. I understood a vocalic ‘r’ to be the sound heard in words such as work [ɝ], teacher], part [ɑ˞], etc in many North American dialects.
What you have described are r-colored vowels, not vocalic /r/.


In your post #11, giving examples of assimilation you noted “Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr)”, which suggested to me that you might pronounce ‘serene’ , when there is no assimilation, as /sri:n/.
That's correct. My pronunciation of <r> in the word serene is vocalic: it is not an r-colored vowel. More clearly, I do not pronounce serene with an epenthetic vowel ([səri:n]), nor do I pronounce it with an r-colored vowel ([sɚi:n]).


I was asking for you to confirm that there was assimiliation in your dialect in 'Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr)'.
Yes, there is, at least in fast speech. Does that help?
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

Soup: What you have described are r-colored vowels, not vocalic /r/. […] My pronunciation of <r> in the word serene is vocalic: it is not an r-colored vowel. More clearly, I do not pronounce serene with an epenthetic vowel ([səri:n]), nor do I pronounce it with an r-colored vowel ([s[FONT=&quot]ɚ[/FONT]i:n]).
5jj: My understanding came from the only references I was able to find, which suggested that vocalic ‘r’, and ‘r-coloured vowels’ were the same thing. So what is a vocalic ‘r’? and what is the IPA symbol for it? You used the symbol r, which I know as the IPA symbol for voiced alveolar trill, and the symbol used in BrE phonemic transcription for a voiced post-alveolar approximant.

Fjj: I was asking for you to confirm that there was assimiliation in your dialect in 'Church Serene (/tʃ#ʃr)'.
Soup: Yes, there is, at least in fast speech.
5jj. Thank you.


(From another post):
5jj:1. Is 'serene' commonly pronounced /sri:n/ in some parts of North America?
Soup: The /r/ is vocalic in my dialect (I can't speak for North American).

I had assumed that your home country being Canada, you spoke a North American dialect.
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

I had assumed that your home country being Canada, you spoke a North American dialect.
I do. Your point being...? (This is becoming rather tedious.)
 

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Re: Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

This is becoming rather tedious.
Quite. Time to stop.
 
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