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  1. #11
    TheParser is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Replacing The Commnon Case with The Possesive Case

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAD View Post
    TheParser, I'm also referring to Murphy's "English Grammar In Use" book, 2nd edition, the blue one, but there is no example with The book's title/ the title of the book in it.But I guess there it is OK as soon as both versions are correct.
    Offtopic: You wrote about consulting a good dictionary and I'm going to buy the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 8th edition. It's the best dictionary I have looked at so far (at least this is my impression after reading the brochure).
    What desktop/on-line dictionaries do you use? What could you advice?
    Thanks.

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    (1) My copy is red. Grammar in Use/ Reference and Practice for

    Intermediate Students of English, 1990, page 150. Cambridge University

    Press. He also gives credit to Roann Altman and William E. Rutherford.

    (2) I am sure that you will get many online dictionary recommendations.

    (a) I think that many people like OneLook Dictionary Search. It connects

    you to dozens of dictionaries. You probably know this already.

    (b) And just in case you haven't discovered them yet, many people

    like: (i) Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary.

    (ii) Macmillan Dictionary.

    (3) And -- of course -- you can post a specific example here. The

    teachers and moderators (one of whom is a professional writer) can

    be counted upon to give you an informed (accurate) answer.

  2. #12
    AlexAD's Avatar
    AlexAD is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Replacing The Commnon Case with The Possesive Case

    Here are some more examples about it:

    1. a school for girls => a girls' school
    2. a magazine for women => a women's magazine.
    3. Charles's room

    I guess, the Indefinite Article from the first example is addressed to the noun in the Possessive Case girls', isn't it? If so, then we use the Indefinite Article before singular noun girls'. Is it correct?

    Should we add 's or simply ' in the third example? If the given example is correct, should we then read it putting iz at the end?

  3. #13
    Soup's Avatar
    Soup is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Replacing The Commnon Case with The Possesive Case

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    NOTE:

    (a) Mr. Murphy says that "the book's title" is OK.

    So why isn't your "book's pages" OK, too?

    Maybe a teacher will tell us why.
    The fundamental idea is that "things" (e.g., books, tables, etc) are made up of parts that are integral to the whole. A book's title, for example, is not an integral part of the book (with or without a title, the book still exists). The same, however, cannot be said for the pages of a book; they are an integral part of the book (they make up the book and without them there wouldn't be a book, which is why the phrase the book's pages is deemed awkward (by some, but not by all, as there are speakers who do in fact use such phrases in spoken English). The boundaries begin to get fuzzy when a part of the whole is deemed integral by some and non-integral by others; e.g., both of these are possible: the book's cover; the cover of the book. To some the cover is an integral part of the book, whereas to others it is nothing more than a cover and the book would still exists whether or not it had a cover.


    Hope that helped some.

  4. #14
    Soup's Avatar
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    Re: Replacing The Commnon Case with The Possesive Case

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAD View Post
    Here are some more examples about it:

    1. a school for girls => a girls' school
    2. a magazine for women => a women's magazine.
    3. Charles's room[

    I guess, the Indefinite Article from the first example is addressed to the noun in the Possessive Case girls', isn't it? If so, then we use the Indefinite Article before singular noun girls'. Is it correct?
    The indefinite article (a) goes with the nouns school and magazine, not the possessive adjectives girls and women's:


    1. a school -> + adjective = a girls' school
    a school that is for girls
    2. a magazine -> + adjective = a women's maganize.
    a magazine that is for women

  5. #15
    AlexAD's Avatar
    AlexAD is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Replacing The Commnon Case with The Possesive Case

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    The indefinite article (a) goes with the nouns school and magazine, not the possessive adjectives girls and women's:


    1. a school -> + adjective = a girls' school
    a school that is for girls
    2. a magazine -> + adjective = a women's maganize.
    a magazine that is for women
    Let me argue with that.
    If you're right with your explanation then taking into account a fact that we can't put more than one determinative before a noun and both a and girls' are determinatives we lead to the conclusion that a can't be the article for the school.
    That simple rule has a result that such shots as
    many my
    friends, each your mistake, some his remarks aren't right.

    I would be grateful if you would correct my grammar in the post.
    Last edited by AlexAD; 13-Apr-2011 at 20:16.

  6. #16
    philo2009 is offline Key Member
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    Re: Replacing The Commnon Case with The Possesive Case

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAD View Post
    Let me argue with that.
    If you're right with your explanation then taking into account a fact that we can't put more than one determinative before a noun and both a and girls' are determinatives we lead to the conclusion that a can't be the article for the school.
    That simple rule has a result that such shots as
    many my
    friends, each your mistake, some his remarks aren't right.

    I would be grateful if you would correct my grammar in the post.
    The possessive-case nouns cited here function as modifiers, not determiners.

    The modifying function of possessives is limited to a small group of nouns, most notably boys', girls', men's, women's.

    You might like to note, in any case, that there is no absolute rule prohibiting the combining of determiners. Cf. e.g. all such problems.

  7. #17
    Soup's Avatar
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    Re: Replacing The Commnon Case with The Possesive Case

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexAD View Post
    Let me argue with that.
    ...we can't put more than one determinative before a noun... .
    There is, however, another slot, that of the adjective:


    • the five books


    • all the five books


    • the women's books


    • all the women's books


    • all the five women's books



    Note that, all of the above are examples of phrases that appear to have multiple determinatives. Determinatives are:


    1. Articles
    2. Demonstrative determiners
    3. Interrogative determiners
    4. Possessive determiners
    5. Quantifiers
    6. Numerals




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