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  1. #11
    milan2003_07's Avatar
    milan2003_07 is offline Member
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    Default Re: Reflecting on 'The'

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    After spending some time on these forums, I disagree. Native speakers seem to have some problems with articles.
    Really? Sounds strange. Maybe different opinions? Could you provide any examples illustrating your words?

  2. #12
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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  3. #13
    Soup's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reflecting on 'The'

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    Have a look at:
    http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/as...ontexts-2.html I don't see a problem here: 'a Korean' (unspecified), 'the Korean' (specified)
    http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/118528-a-2.html#post586351
    Nor here: 'The work' (specified), 'Work' (general)
    http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ge...tml#post705540 No examples to draw on there...
    Soup

  4. #14
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Reflecting on 'The'

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    Soup
    These aren't examples of sentences that every native speaker would have a problem with. They are examples of native speakers admitting their problems with articles.

  5. #15
    freezeframe is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: Reflecting on 'The'

    Natives do not make mistakes when using articles. The problem they might have is in articulating why they use the articles the way they do. Quote you gave a link to by fivejedjon:

    I like to think I am moderately proficient in the language, and know something about its grammar, but in my final teaching year I did a lot of work with (very) advanced learners. Part of our time was spent on correcting manuals and reports they had written and on discussing their translation work.

    Trying to work out whether 'the' could be left out or not - and why - had me nearly tearing my hair out sometimes.
    The problem is in interpretation of the text and then in coming up with a "why" and explaining it to a learner. Not with using the article intuitively.

  6. #16
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Reflecting on 'The'

    Quote Originally Posted by freezeframe View Post
    Natives do not make mistakes when using articles. The problem they might have is in articulating why they use the articles the way they do. Quote you gave a link to by fivejedjon:
    I never said they made mistakes when using them. You said they didn't have problems with them. I say they do. You also say
    The problem is in interpretation of the text and then in coming up with a "why" and explaining it to a learner. Not with using the article intuitively.
    No. Fivejedjon said

    Trying to work out whether 'the' could be left out or not [...] had me nearly tearing my hair out sometimes.

    I omitted "and why" to stress the fact that "whether" is there too. You also haven't commented on Barb's

    I sometimes struggle with whether to use the zero article or "the."

    No whys here. Just a whether.

  7. #17
    freezeframe is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: Reflecting on 'The'

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    I never said they made mistakes when using them. You said they didn't have problems with them. I say they do. You also say
    No. Fivejedjon said

    Trying to work out whether 'the' could be left out or not [...] had me nearly tearing my hair out sometimes.

    I omitted "and why" to stress the fact that "whether" is there too. You also haven't commented on Barb's

    I sometimes struggle with whether to use the zero article or "the."

    No whys here. Just a whether.
    We can be going back and forth like this forever. So, okay.

  8. #18
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Reflecting on 'The'

    Quote Originally Posted by freezeframe View Post
    We can be going back and forth like this forever. So, okay.
    I don't see the back and forth. But -- okay.

  9. #19
    freezeframe is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: Reflecting on 'The'

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    I don't see the back and forth. But -- okay.
    You are welcome to see anything you wish.

  10. #20
    Mary Bright is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Reflecting on 'The'

    Birdeen's call, I think freezeframe didn't really mean 'they don't have problems with them at all' being literally read. The thing he wanted to tell me is that native speakers do not reflect on articles as we, learners, do. They use them intuitively.

    Sometimes they happen not to know why they used this/ that article -- they just know it's right to say that way. In this sense natives truly don't have problems with atricles, again, in comparison with learners. But if you ask them according to what rules they use articles not everyone can give you an answer. Such situations are known to every native speaker of any language. I think you perfectly understand that .

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