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Thread: the use of 'as'

  1. #1
    learnerr is offline Newbie
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    Default the use of 'as'

    Dear who could help me out

    Hi, I got a question of grammatical use of 'as'.

    'As' can be used in many different forms like conjunction, preposition etc..

    The question that I want to ask is,

    in case of "At the same time as he ran out of money, he was fired from his job", the clause followed by 'as' (conjunction) describes the noun 'time'. right?

    However, as far as I have been taught, Conjunctions do not describe noun. They rather connect sentence to sentence, noun to noun, etc...
    The conjunction that can connect noun and the clause, I know of, is "that"
    for ex) I know the fact that you are not one of us.



    So, what is the exact grammatical form of as in that case? If as is used as conjunction how is it possible it can describe noun?

    Please help me out!

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    Soup is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: the use of 'as'

    • At the same time as/that he ran out of money, he was fired from his job", the clause followed by 'as' (conjunction) describes the noun 'time'. [R]ight?


    Right.

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    TheParser is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: the use of 'as'

    Quote Originally Posted by learnerr View Post
    Dear who could help me out

    Hi, I got a question of grammatical use of 'as'.

    'As' can be used in many different forms like conjunction, preposition etc..

    The question that I want to ask is,

    in case of "At the same time as he ran out of money, he was fired from his job", the clause followed by 'as' (conjunction) describes the noun 'time'. right?

    However, as far as I have been taught, Conjunctions do not describe noun. They rather connect sentence to sentence, noun to noun, etc...
    The conjunction that can connect noun and the clause, I know of, is "that"
    for ex) I know the fact that you are not one of us.



    So, what is the exact grammatical form of as in that case? If as is used as conjunction how is it possible it can describe noun?

    Please help me out!

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    (1) I have checked many of my books, and I think that most of

    them would be more comfortable using the term "relative pronoun" to

    describe "that" or "as" in your sentence.

    (2) After checking my books, I think that we could analyze your sentence

    as:

    He was fired at the same time at which he ran out of money.

    (One book explains that "that" = "at which" after the nouns "time" or

    "way." If you use "that," that book would call it a relative pronoun.)

    (3) One scholar gives an example somewhat similar to your sentence:

    We rode the same way as we had come out the evening before.

    He calls "as" a "connective (relative) particle." Whatever that is!!!

    As you pointed out, it is strange to parse (analyze) "as" as a

    conjunction when referring to a noun. So I think that many books simply

    call it a relative pronoun. (Or: connective relative particle!!!)

    (4) One of the greatest American scholars (George O. Curme) gives

    this example:

    He sits in the same row that/as we do.

    He calls it a relative pronoun, too.

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    Allen165 is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: the use of 'as'

    Is "as" really necessary in the sentence "At the same time as he ran out of money, he was fired from his job"?

    Thanks!

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    learnerr is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: the use of 'as'

    Thank you all! especially for Parser for specifically explaining
    Got another question hope Parser or others could read it
    You said that it's strange to parse "as" as a conjunction referring to nouns, which is also what I said,
    Just like that, "that" when we say "fact that you did sth"
    Is it also strange to parse "that" as conjunction?
    Just asking how you or other natives accept or think "that" in those cases

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    Default Re: the use of 'as'

    Quote Originally Posted by learnerr View Post
    Thank you all! especially for Parser for specifically explaining
    Got another question hope Parser or others could read it
    You said that it's strange to parse "as" as a conjunction referring to nouns, which is also what I said,
    Just like that, "that" when we say "fact that you did sth"
    Is it also strange to parse "that" as conjunction?
    Just asking how you or other natives accept or think "that" in those cases

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    (1) You have asked another great question. (By the way, I think that

    the website prefers that you start a new thread for a new question.)

    (2) Yes, many books call "that" a so-called conjunction in this

    sentence:

    The fact that he hates fish is obvious.

    "That he hates fish" is not an adjective clause. It is simply a noun

    clause in apposition with "fact."

    The sentence is: The fact is obvious.

    What fact? Answer: That he hates fish.

    Some books refuse to call it a conjunction. They do not know what to

    call it. So they use the word "expletive."

    CAREFUL: "The story that he told us was a lie." Now, this time

    "that he told us" is a true adjective clause. So "that" is definitely

    a so-called relative pronoun.

    *****


    Is it difficult to know when it's a noun clause in apposition and

    when it's a genuine adjective clause? You betcha!!!

    Here's a hint:

    In "The fact that he hates fish is obvious," the conjunction/expletive

    plays NO role in "he hates fish." It just introduces the words "he hates

    fish."

    Now look at "The story that he told us was a lie." Does "that"

    play a role? Yes. What is that role? As you probably answered,

    it is the direct object: he told that [the story] to us./ He told us that.

    I give 100% credit to Professor Paul Roberts, author of Understanding

    Grammar (New York: Harper & Row, 1954).

    P.S. Professor Roberts calls that "fish" sentence CLOSE apposition.

    He then gives an example of LOOSE apposition:

    We must remember this important fact, that he hates fish.

    (In that sentence, I think that you can more clearly see that

    "that" is acting as a conjunction -- connecting "fact" with

    "he hates fish.")

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