ordinal number before relative pronouns

Status
Not open for further replies.

ju.ilkyu

Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Korean
Home Country
South Korea
Current Location
South Korea
Shrek is the first movie ( ) I saw at the theater.

I learned that if there is an ordinal number, superlative, "all", "the same", ...etc before relative pronouns, "that" must be filled in the blank.

I want to know if "which" is correct in that sentence either.

In short, I want to know if "Shrek is the first movie which I saw at the theater" could be recognized as a correct sentence.

Please help me!
 

Rover_KE

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
'That' is better than 'which', but no pronoun is best of all.

'Shrek was the first movie I saw at the cinema.'

Rover
 
Last edited:

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
TE=ju.ilkyu;745401]I learned that if there is an ordinal number, superlative, "all", "the same", ...etc before relative pronouns, "that" must be filled in the blank.

I want to know if "which" is correct in that sentence either.

In short, I want to know if "Shrek is the first movie which I saw at the theater" could be recognized as a correct sentence.

Please help me![/QUOTE]


***** A NON-TEACHER'S COMMENT *****


(1) Here in the United States, many teachers agree with the

"rule" that you mentioned: use "that" for restrictive (defining)

clauses.

(2) When you say that "Shrek is the first movie ...." you are obviously

referring to a particular movie.

(3) Mr. Bryan A. Garner, whom many Americans follow for advice on

"good" English, says:

"f you see a which without a comma before it, nine times out of

ten it needs to be a that."

(4) It is only my opinion that most Americans would feel more

comfortable with "that" in your sentence. I do not know whether the

use of "which" can be called "wrong."

(5) And as Teacher Rover told us: native speakers (especially in

conversation) simply delete (drop/forget/erase) the relative pronoun

in sentences such as yours.

(6) The bottom line: IMHO, use "that" or zero relative pronoun.


Respectfully yours,


James
 
Last edited:

ju.ilkyu

Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Korean
Home Country
South Korea
Current Location
South Korea
Thanks for your replies!

So "that" or no pronoun would be the best usage, but we can't tell that "Shrek is the first movie which~~" is grammatically wrong. Did I understand right?
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Thanks for your replies!

So "that" or no pronoun would be the best usage, but we can't tell that "Shrek is the first movie which~~" is grammatically wrong. Did I understand right?


***** A NON-TEACHER's COMMENT *****


(1) Sometimes it is very difficult to say whether something is

"grammatically" wrong.

(2) In "She don't speak English," almost everyone agrees that

"don't" is wrong -- at least in standard English.

(3) I apologize for not being clear in my first post: I do not know

whether "It was the first movie which I saw" is "grammatically" wrong.

(a) I shall make a guess and say: NO. I guess that if you said it, nobody

would be too upset. In fact, probably some native speakers would use it.

(b) I shall say, however, that you would be much safer to use

"that" or zero relative pronoun.

(4) Since you are a learner, you should probably stick with the

"rule":

"That" for restrictive/defining clauses.

"Which" for non-restrictive clauses.

Zero relative pronoun instead of "that." (Remember: you cannot

delete the relative pronoun if it is the SUBJECT:

It was the first movie that/which(?) made an impression on me.)


Respectfully yours,

James
 

Soup

VIP Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
Canada
Current Location
China
(3) I apologize for not being clear in my first post: I do not know

whether "It was the first movie which I saw" is "grammatically" wrong.
Relative 'that' is preferred with ordinal numbers, but does that make defining 'which' grammatically wrong? Liberate your mind. Click here, Go to the first post.

_____________________________

A clause which has lost its [comma] is certainly restrictive.
 

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
(1) Here in the United States, many teachers agree with the

"rule" that you mentioned: use "that" for restrictive (defining)

clauses.

In BrE, this rule does't apply, so which is fine, though that sounds more natural after an ordinal.
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
In BrE, this rule does't apply, so which is fine, though that sounds more natural after an ordinal.

***** A NON-TEACHER's COMMENT *****


(1) Very interesting to hear that many British people do not follow the

"that/which" rule.

(2) I have read that the legendary Fowler Brothers "invented" it, and

(I believe) the Fowler Brothers were as English as one can be.

(3) Our Mr. Garner says that it's a wonderful rule and the great

Fowler Brothers deserve praise for "inventing" it.

(4) Why, some people actually belittle the Fowlers for having

invented it!!!


Respectfully yours,


James
 

ju.ilkyu

Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Korean
Home Country
South Korea
Current Location
South Korea
Thank you all of you who answered my question!

Actually, I'm a middle school student in South Korea, and recently I took an mid-term exam, the problem I asked was on the exam.

The question in the exam was :

Choose the answer that has words which will be filled in the blanks in order.

1. Shrek is the first movie (_____) I saw at the theater.
2. She has a daughter (_____) name is Paula.
3. I have two sons, (____) are doctors.
1)which - whose - who
2)that - that - that
3)which - whose- that
4)that - whose - who
5)which- that - whose

I chose number 1), and the answer was 4).

I must have an 100 score because of entering high school, and I'm so worried.

I think most of you think that

1) that or no pronoun is correct, though which doesn't sound unnatural.
2)especially in BrE, both of them are correct.

Did I got it right?

So, I will try to pursue my English teacher, but I can't think how to pursue him.

Sorry about I keep asking this.. so sorry

If you have any idea, please give me some advice. Thank you.
 
Last edited:

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
In BrE, we can use that/who or that/which interchangeably in most defining/restrictive relative clauses, but after an ordinal number, after words like any, etc, we tend to use that. So, for me 4 is the best answer; I don't think that 1 is an error, but it doesn't sound very natural to me- it's OK but not the best choice.

AmE speakers may see things differently.
 

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
(2) I have read that the legendary Fowler Brothers "invented" it, and

(I believe) the Fowler Brothers were as English as one can be.

Maybe they invented it for the export market as no one was listening at home. ;-)
 

freezeframe

Key Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2011
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Canada
Current Location
Canada
Maybe they invented it for the export market as no one was listening at home. ;-)

LOL

Or maybe language changes, styles change, vocabulary changes, society changes... Language isn't geometry.

I personally find the insistence on "good English" in some threads to be detrimental to English learners, my own personal view on such a conceptualization of language aside.

There are many rules that are flexible and not really rules at all but rather patterns of speech. Many learners who become fixated on "good English", in my experience, end up being too perfectionist to the detriment of their learning. They fear writing, speaking, and generally using the language, which is the most critical part of learning a language. Rather than aiming for understandability and practicing using English even if they make mistakes, they get fixated on finding the "correct" tense or the "correct" article and get stuck. It also makes them extremely frustrated because in many cases there is no neat rule to memorize.
 

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
I agree- I'm not greatly in favour of adding to the terminology in languae, but a new term instead of calling things rules would be useful IMO, as in many cases, they are patterns or generalisations rather than rules.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top