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  1. #21
    symaa is offline Member
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    Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    In any case, that would be /ba:t/ or /bart/ if you're rhotic (for the second), not /bɑ:t/ or /bɑrt/.

    You'll also note that the official IPA vowel chart places ɑ and ʌ in difference places. And your teachers chart seems to be missing the /a/, which is traditional below the . He's apparently using /ɑ/ for /a/, which is fine as long as everyone knows what's going on (and realises that it's not traditional IPA). He still can't transcibe 'cat' as /kɑt/ though, if that's the case.

    Here's a proper IPA charthttp://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/5/5a/20060825195333!IPA_vowel_chart_2005.png&imgrefurl= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IPA_vowel_chart_2005.png&h=641&w=797&sz=32&tb nid=6XljW6PUjVOlpM:&tbnh=115&tbnw=143&prev=/search%3Fq%3DIPA%2Bvowel%2Bchart%26tbm%3Disch%26tb o%3Du&zoom=1&q=IPA+vowel+chart&hl=en&usg=___Q6Rifa mIMV7pS7nb-HocbqQDjo=&sa=X&ei=FOTSTa_PDYPOrQeTzKWrCQ&sqi=2&ve d=0CD4Q9QEwBg
    Okay,Thank you very much, tomorrow I'll ask him If I can.But this chart contains many vowels that I do no know them.
    Best wishes

  2. #22
    Raymott's Avatar
    Raymott is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    I don't think this is right. [ɑ:] is present in RP in words like "father", "far", "path", "laugh". The sound is apparently not present in AusE, this chart says.
    OK, fair enough, you're right. Brits use [ɑ] where I use [a].
    Are those other charts IPA? It's not clear from the links. I thought there was only one IPA vowel chart, and you couldn't move symbols around willy nilly. If you can move the symbols around, then obviously I can place [a] where someone else places [ɑ] and Bob's your uncle.
    I feel like the whole point of IPA is being corrupted.

    He still can't spell 'cat' /kɑt/ (Unless there's another chart that says he can and that has [ɑ] where [] traditionally goes. But wouldn't that be cheating?)

  3. #23
    symaa is offline Member
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    Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    I don't think this is right. [ɑ:] is present in RP? in words like "father", "far", "path", "laugh". The sound is apparently not present in AusE, this chart says.
    Thanks a lot
    I do not understant the words which written with red color.
    Regards

  4. #24
    konungursvia's Avatar
    konungursvia is offline Key Member
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    Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by symaa View Post
    Thanks a lot
    I do not understant the words which written with red color.
    Regards
    RP= "Received pronunciation" or the Queen's English, or Cambridge/Oxford English, or upper-class English.

    AusE = Australian English.

  5. #25
    symaa is offline Member
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    Thumbs up Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    OK, fair enough, you're right. Brits use [ɑ] where I use [a].
    Are those other charts IPA? It's not clear from the links. I thought there was only one IPA vowel chart, and you couldn't move symbols around willy nilly. If you can move the symbols around, then obviously I can place [a] where someone else places [ɑ] and Bob's your uncle.
    I feel like the whole point of IPA is being corrupted.

    He still can't spell 'cat' /kɑt/ (Unless there's another chart that says he can and that has [ɑ] where [] traditionally goes. But wouldn't that be cheating?)
    Thank you very much for your explanation.....

  6. #26
    symaa is offline Member
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    Thumbs up Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    RP= "Received pronunciation" or the Queen's English, or Cambridge/Oxford English, or upper-class English.

    AusE = Australian English.
    thanks a lot................

  7. #27
    symaa is offline Member
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    Lightbulb Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    I do not know how I can thank you, you are very helpful








    My appreciation and thankfulness

  8. #28
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    OK, fair enough, you're right. Brits use [ɑ] where I use [a].
    Are those other charts IPA? It's not clear from the links. I thought there was only one IPA vowel chart, and you couldn't move symbols around willy nilly. If you can move the symbols around, then obviously I can place [a] where someone else places [ɑ] and Bob's your uncle.
    The problem is that [ɑ], or any other of these symbols, can mean different things. I know too little about it to explain it well -- I might mix up the terms. In general, there are diaphonemes, phonemes and allophones (and probably many other difficult words which I don't know). A diaphoneme is a group of sounds that "are considered to be the same by the speakers" even if they pronounce them differently. In the chart, you have a diaphoneme in the leftmost column and then the most common variants (which would be allophones I believe) in different dialects. They're all denoted with the same set of IPA symbols.

  9. #29
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by symaa View Post
    Thanks a lot
    I do not understant the words which written with red color.
    Regards
    Thank you for asking. It was thoughtless of me to use the abbreviations without explaining.

    I will add to konungursvia's explanation that you really should learn about Received Pronunciation if you want to study British pronunciation. It's a very important accent. You might want to skim the Wikipedia article about it: Received Pronunciation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

  10. #30
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    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Re: Question about English vowel diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    OK, fair enough, you're right. Brits use [ɑ] where I use [a].
    Are those other charts IPA? It's not clear from the links. I thought there was only one IPA vowel chart, and you couldn't move symbols around willy nilly. If you can move the symbols around, then obviously I can place [a] where someone else places [ɑ] and Bob's your uncle.
    I feel like the whole point of IPA is being corrupted.

    ...
    When transcribing, say German, in which den and denn have distinct vowels, it is necessary to use both e and ɛ. The IPA provides a toolkit, from which a user can choose what's needed in their context. The Principles of the IPA describe 'narrow' and 'broad' transcription, which can vary almost infintely to cope with diaphonemes (this is a word that I just picked up from BC, but it seems to make sense ). So most ELT materials I've seen/used pick just the more familiar symbol (although the RP /e/ is neither [e] nor [ɛ] - it's more open than [e], more close than [ɛ], and more central than either): this gives 'den' (where a fox lives) as /den/.

    I don't think this is a corruption. That diagram you posted shows the 'cardinal vowels'; there are conventions that control how the IPA's symbols can be used in any particular context. I don't think symaa should worry overmuch about that diagram; it describes an ideal, which is not perfectly realized in any natural language (though more closely in some than in others).

    b
    Last edited by BobK; 18-May-2011 at 13:31. Reason: Added last paren

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