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  1. #11
    ostap77 is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: in 1912 that or in 1912 when

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    I much prefer the first. I don't like the second at all.
    I'll put my question this way. Would you consider test queations where you have to choose between "when" and "that" accurate without any context and not knowing which part of the sentence the speaker wants to emphasize? Because our teacher says "that is correct and when is incorrect".

  2. #12
    emsr2d2's Avatar
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    Default Re: in 1912 that or in 1912 when

    I prefer the first sentence. It sound much more natural and is not ambiguous.

    It was in 1912 that Titanic sank.

    I would expect "when" to be used in connection with other information, within a clause:

    It was in 1912, when Titanic sank, that people realised that ship builders are not infallible.

  3. #13
    bhaisahab's Avatar
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    Default Re: in 1912 that or in 1912 when

    Quote Originally Posted by ostap77 View Post
    I'll put my question this way. Would you consider test queations where you have to choose between "when" and "that" accurate without any context and not knowing which part of the sentence the speaker wants to emphasize? Because our teacher says "that is correct and when is incorrect".
    My advice would be to use "that" in the "Titanic" sentence.l

  4. #14
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: in 1912 that or in 1912 when

    Quote Originally Posted by ostap77 View Post
    Here's the example I pulled from the BBC web-site.

    "It was last Saturday when my brother bought his new car from our neighbour."

    Would there be a difference if it were "It was on Aug. 5 when my brother bought his new car from our neighbour."? Should it be "......that my brother bought ........."?

    NOT A TEACHER


    DEAR MEMBER OSTAP:


    (1) I went to the BBC website and saw that sentence and also this

    one: 7 May 1945 was the day (when) the Second World War ended

    in Europe.

    (a) The BBC is a wonderful news organization and I can only dream of

    being able to speak and write as well as those BBC newsreaders.

    (b) But you have to satisfy your teachers who, understandably, have

    to teach the "rules."

    (c) I strongly recommend that you google "BBC cleft sentences." Then

    click on the 7th result ("Cleft sentences - TOPIC"). You will find that

    some sentences that start with "it" are not actually cleft sentences.

    Thus, a "when" or "where" may be justified.

    (d) Nevertheless, using that on your examinations -- as the great

    teachers at this helpline have suggested -- is your safest route.

    (2) I have collected these examples from my books:


    (a) It is on Sundays that Bob always plays golf. (The Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar)

    (b) It was yesterday that my secretary sent the bill to Mr. Harding.
    (Practical English Usage)

    (c) It was last night that Freda phoned. (Longman English Grammar)

    (d) It's in the kitchen that I study. (The Grammar Book)

    (e) It was on Monday that the players objected to the delay. (The Oxford Companion to the English Language)

    (f) It was in London that I met her. ( English Review Grammar)

    (g) It was in a Norfolk village that I first ran across him. (A Dictionary of Modern English. The author -- the legendary Mr. H. W. Fowler!!! -- says that "where" would not be idiomatic.)

    (h) It was there/ in Italy/ in my early youth/ then/ in this way that I first made his acquaintance. (Essentials of English Grammar -- written by
    the legendary Professor Otto Jespersen)

    (i) It was in September that I first noticed it. *** It was at 9.15 [9:15] this morning that the government proclaimed a state of emergency.

    (A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, the famous grammar written by Professor Quirk and his distinguished colleagues)

    (j) It was night before last that it happened. (A Grammar of Present-Day English)

    Respectfully yours,


    James

  5. #15
    ostap77 is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: in 1912 that or in 1912 when

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    NOT A TEACHER


    DEAR MEMBER OSTAP:


    (1) I went to the BBC website and saw that sentence and also this

    one: 7 May 1945 was the day (when) the Second World War ended

    in Europe.

    (a) The BBC is a wonderful news organization and I can only dream of

    being able to speak and write as well as those BBC newsreaders.

    (b) But you have to satisfy your teachers who, understandably, have

    to teach the "rules."

    (c) I strongly recommend that you google "BBC cleft sentences." Then

    click on the 7th result ("Cleft sentences - TOPIC"). You will find that

    some sentences that start with "it" are not actually cleft sentences.

    Thus, a "when" or "where" may be justified.

    (d) Nevertheless, using that on your examinations -- as the great

    teachers at this helpline have suggested -- is your safest route.

    (2) I have collected these examples from my books:


    (a) It is on Sundays that Bob always plays golf. (The Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar)

    (b) It was yesterday that my secretary sent the bill to Mr. Harding.
    (Practical English Usage)

    (c) It was last night that Freda phoned. (Longman English Grammar)

    (d) It's in the kitchen that I study. (The Grammar Book)

    (e) It was on Monday that the players objected to the delay. (The Oxford Companion to the English Language)

    (f) It was in London that I met her. ( English Review Grammar)

    (g) It was in a Norfolk village that I first ran across him. (A Dictionary of Modern English. The author -- the legendary Mr. H. W. Fowler!!! -- says that "where" would not be idiomatic.)

    (h) It was there/ in Italy/ in my early youth/ then/ in this way that I first made his acquaintance. (Essentials of English Grammar -- written by
    the legendary Professor Otto Jespersen)

    (i) It was in September that I first noticed it. *** It was at 9.15 [9:15] this morning that the government proclaimed a state of emergency.

    (A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, the famous grammar written by Professor Quirk and his distinguished colleagues)

    (j) It was night before last that it happened. (A Grammar of Present-Day English)

    Respectfully yours,


    James
    Here's the link.

    Learning English | BBC World Service

    It shows how to choose bwetween "that,who and when". So is it when or that?
    Being an American,what would be your answer from the American point of view?
    Last edited by ostap77; 29-May-2011 at 15:30.

  6. #16
    Raymott's Avatar
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    Default Re: in 1912 that or in 1912 when

    I'd also choose 'that' in the cases where the BBC site gives 'when'. However, note that the BBC site is not arguing that only 'when' is correct and that 'that' is wrong. The person who wrote that page uses 'when', and most of us here use 'that'. That happens.

    I'd use 'when' as emsr2d2 said:
    Child: When did your grandfather die?
    Father: It was in 1912, when the Titanic sank.

    I would also not use 'where' in this way.
    * "It was in Paris where I bought this jacket." Strange to me.
    "It was in Paris that I bought this jacket." Normal.

    Nor would I use 'why' this way.
    * "It was because of his weight why he went on a diet."
    "It was because of his weight that he went on a diet."

    Nor would I use 'how'.
    * "It was with great effort how he lifted the rock."
    "It was with great effort that he lifted the rock."

    Their inappropriate use in this situation becomes progressively more obvious in the examples above, even though they
    perform similar grammatical functions:
    "When the Titanic sank was in 1912."
    "Where I bought the jacket was in Paris."
    "Why he went on a diet was because of his weight."
    "How he lifted the rock was with great effort."


    NB: If 'in' is omitted, 'when' is correct.
    "It was in 1912 when the Titanic sank.

  7. #17
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: in 1912 that or in 1912 when

    Quote Originally Posted by ostap77 View Post
    Here's the link.

    Learning English | BBC World Service

    It shows how to choose bwetween "that,who and when". So is it when or that?
    Being an American,what would be your answer from the American point of view?

    NOT A TEACHER


    (1) I am delighted that you are still interested in this topic. It is

    evident that you want to understand it in depth.

    (2) If I tried to give the American point of view, my fellow Americans

    would boo me off the stage!!!

    (3) That BBC article is nice, but -- quite frankly and with the

    greatest respect -- some of those sentences are not really

    cleft sentences.

    (4) I again most respectfully and humbly ask that you google

    "BBC cleft sentences" and then click on the 7th result entitled

    "Cleft sentences -- TOPIC"

    (a) It will explain to you the diffference between genuine

    cleft sentences (which require "that") and non-cleft sentences

    that may use "when" or "where."

    (b) Let me give you just a taste of what you will learn (as did I) in

    that thread (The following are my examples, based on what I THINK

    that I learned in that link):

    REAL CLEFT (when you want to emphasize something)

    Tom: I think that she bought the dress in Berlin.

    Sue: No way! I happen to know that it was in Paris (not in Berlin) that

    she bought the dress.

    NOT A CLEFT SENTENCE (just a calm answer)

    Mona: Do you know where Tony bought his hat?

    George: Yes, I do. He bought his hat in Paris./ Oh, I believe that

    it was Paris where he bought his hat. = Paris was [the place]

    where he bought his hat. (Notice that there is no preposition "in.")


    Respectfully yours,


    James

  8. #18
    ostap77 is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: in 1912 that or in 1912 when

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    NOT A TEACHER


    (1) I am delighted that you are still interested in this topic. It is

    evident that you want to understand it in depth.

    (2) If I tried to give the American point of view, my fellow Americans

    would boo me off the stage!!!

    (3) That BBC article is nice, but -- quite frankly and with the

    greatest respect -- some of those sentences are not really

    cleft sentences.

    (4) I again most respectfully and humbly ask that you google

    "BBC cleft sentences" and then click on the 7th result entitled

    "Cleft sentences -- TOPIC"

    (a) It will explain to you the diffference between genuine

    cleft sentences (which require "that") and non-cleft sentences

    that may use "when" or "where."

    (b) Let me give you just a taste of what you will learn (as did I) in

    that thread (The following are my examples, based on what I THINK

    that I learned in that link):

    REAL CLEFT (when you want to emphasize something)

    Tom: I think that she bought the dress in Berlin.

    Sue: No way! I happen to know that it was in Paris (not in Berlin) that

    she bought the dress.

    NOT A CLEFT SENTENCE (just a calm answer)

    Mona: Do you know where Tony bought his hat?

    George: Yes, I do. He bought his hat in Paris./ Oh, I believe that

    it was Paris where he bought his hat. = Paris was [the place]

    where he bought his hat. (Notice that there is no preposition "in.")


    Respectfully yours,


    James
    "(2) If I tried to give the American point of view, my fellow Americans

    would boo me off the stage!!!"

    Woudl they use "only that in cleft sentences"?

    "BBC cleft sentences" Can you type the direct link?
    Last edited by ostap77; 29-May-2011 at 19:52.

  9. #19
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: in 1912 that or in 1912 when

    Quote Originally Posted by ostap77 View Post
    "(2) If I tried to give the American point of view, my fellow Americans

    would boo me off the stage!!!"

    Woudl they use "only that in cleft sentences"?

    "BBC cleft sentences" Can you type the direct links?


    NOT A TEACHER


    (1) Thank you for your kind note.

    (2) "Would they use only 'that' in cleft sentences?"

    I do not know. I think the fact that we are having this

    debate shows many native speakers use "when" and "where"

    in cleft sentences and do not give it a second thought.

    Of course, you have to give it a second thought, for you

    are at the mercy of teachers with a red pen. Besides,

    you are a very conscientious learner who wants to speak

    (and write) perfect English. Every poster in this thread has

    suggested that you use "that" in cleft sentences. Regarding

    those sentences that are not genuine cleft sentences, well,

    that is another matter. If you use "that" in those sentences,

    probably no one (including your teachers) would dare say that

    it was wrong.

    (3) Believe me, Ostap, if I could link to that result, I would.

    But I can hardly type this post, let alone link. Surely, you can

    go to Google. Then simply type "BBC cleft sentences." The first page

    of results will appear. Then scroll down (up? I'm so stupid!) to the

    seventh result entitled "Cleft sentences -- TOPIC." Click it on and

    you will find a fascinating discussion among people who know grammar

    very well.

    Your question has really made me think. I thank you for that. I have

    learned a lot.


    Respectfully yours,


    James

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