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Thread: Need Guidance

  1. #1
    rajan is offline Member
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    Need Guidance

    Dear All,

    Here is a sentence:

    Nearly half-a-century after shooting down an Indian civil aircraft under orders during the 1965 war with India, a Pakistan Air Force pilot has sent a condolence message to the daughter of the pilot of the aircraft he downed.


    Would you please tell how we will categorized the underlined part.

    Further, can we start the sentence like this - After nearly half-a-centry .........

    Regards
    Rajan
    Last edited by rajan; 11-Aug-2011 at 07:39. Reason: addition

  2. #2
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    Re: Need Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by rajan View Post
    Dear All,

    Here is a sentence:

    Nearly half-a-century after shooting down an Indian civil aircraft under orders during the 1965 war with India, a Pakistan Air Force pilot has sent a condolence message to the daughter of the pilot of the aircraft he downed.


    Would you please tell how we will categorized the underlined part. This is called an adverbial phrase.

    Further, can we start the sentence like this - After nearly half-a-century .........You can, but you would have to revise what follows. "After nearly half a century, a Pakistan Air Force pilot who shot down...has sent a..."

    Regards
    Rajan
    See above.

  3. #3
    TheParser is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Need Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by rajan View Post
    Dear All,

    Here is a sentence:

    Nearly half-a-century after shooting down an Indian civil aircraft under orders during the 1965 war with India, a Pakistan Air Force pilot has sent a condolence message to the daughter of the pilot of the aircraft he downed.


    Would you please tell how we will categorized the underlined part.

    Further, can we start the sentence like this - After nearly half-a-centry .........

    Regards
    Rajan
    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    (1) My teachers told me to do two things if I wanted to parse (analyze) a

    sentence.

    (2) First, simplify it. So let's change it to:

    Nearly 50 years after shooting down an aiirplane, the pilot has sent a note of condolence.

    (3) Next, put the sentence in "regular" order:

    The pilot has sent a note of condolence nearly 50 years after shooting down an airplane.

    (4) Now we are ready to parse the various sections of the sentence:

    The pilot + has sent a note of condolence + nearly 50 years + after shooting down an airplane.

    The pilot = subject.

    has sent a note of condolence. = predicate (verb + object).

    nearly 50 years = that is a noun phrase. As Teacher Riquecohen told you and

    me, that noun is being used as an adverb. Some books call it an adverbial

    objective. "Nearly 50 years" modifies/ explains/ clarifies/ belongs to the verb

    "has sent." In other words, "The pilot has sent a note of condolence to the extent of

    50 years."

    after shooting down an airplane. = prepositional phrase ("after" is a preposition here).

    It explains "nearly 50 years." So -- as Teacher Riquecohen taught us -- we

    can just call "nearly 50 years after shooting down an airplane" an adverbial phrase

    (or adverbial objective).

  4. #4
    rajan is offline Member
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    Re: Need Guidance

    thanks for your reply.

    I am confused about the placement of adverbial objective "nearly 50 years in the sentence

    1) The pilot has sent a note of condolence nearly 50 years after.......(looks odd to me)

    2) But if we write - The pilot has sent a note of condolence after nearly 50 years (It looks ok)


    Please guide.

    Rajan

    The pilot + has sent a note of condolence + nearly 50 years + after shooting down an airplane.
    The pilot = subject.

    has sent a note of condolence. = predicate (verb + object).

    nearly 50 years = that is a noun phrase. As Teacher Riquecohen told you and

    me, that noun is being used as an adverb. Some books call it an adverbial

    objective. "Nearly 50 years" modifies/ explains/ clarifies/ belongs to the verb

    "has sent." In other words, "The pilot has sent a note of condolence to the extent of

    50 years."

    after shooting down an airplane. = prepositional phrase ("after" is a preposition here).

    It explains "nearly 50 years." So -- as Teacher Riquecohen taught us -- we

    can just call "nearly 50 years after shooting down an airplane" an adverbial phrase

    (or adverbial objective).[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by rajan; 12-Aug-2011 at 12:03.

  5. #5
    TheParser is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Need Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by rajan View Post
    thanks for your reply.

    I am confused about the placement of adverbial objective "nearly 50 years in the sentence

    1) The pilot has sent a note of condolence nearly 50 years after.......(looks odd to me)

    2) But if we write - The pilot has sent a note of condolence after nearly 50 years (It looks ok)


    Please guide.

    Rajan

    The pilot + has sent a note of condolence + nearly 50 years + after shooting down an airplane.
    The pilot = subject.

    has sent a note of condolence. = predicate (verb + object).

    nearly 50 years = that is a noun phrase. As Teacher Riquecohen told you and

    me, that noun is being used as an adverb. Some books call it an adverbial

    objective. "Nearly 50 years" modifies/ explains/ clarifies/ belongs to the verb

    "has sent." In other words, "The pilot has sent a note of condolence to the extent of

    50 years."

    after shooting down an airplane. = prepositional phrase ("after" is a preposition here).

    It explains "nearly 50 years." So -- as Teacher Riquecohen taught us -- we

    can just call "nearly 50 years after shooting down an airplane" an adverbial phrase

    (or adverbial objective).
    [/QUOTE]



    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    (1) Please let me simplify your sentence even more:

    "The pilot apologized nearly 50 years after the incident."

    (a) I was wrong!!!

    (i) I said that "nearly 50 years" was an adverbial objective (a noun that acts like an

    adverb) that modifies the verb.

    (ii) I just found this similar sentence in my favorite grammar book:

    He came a month before the inauguration.

    The book says that "a month" is an adverbial objective that modifies the preposition

    "before." In other words: He came to the inauguration to the extent of a month before the inauguration.

    (iii) So in "He apologized nearly 50 years after the incident," the adverbial objective

    modifies the preposition "after": He apologized after the incident to the extent of 50

    years after (the incident)./ "He sent a note of condolence nearly 50 years after shooting down the plane": "nearly 50 years" modifies the preposition "after." He sent a note of condolence after (to the extent of 50 years) shooting down the plane.

    Please pardon me for my wrong analysis in my first post. I hope that I am correct this time.


    *****

    I think that the following are "good" English:

    He has sent a note of condolence nearly 50 years after/ afterwards/ later.

    Those words in bold are adverbs. And the adverbial objective ("nearly 50 years")

    modifies the adverb. That is, He sent a note of condolence after/afterwards/later

    to the extent of 50 years.

    (You say that "He sent a note of condolence after nearly 50 years" looks OK to

    you. Well, maybe you are correct. Let's see what a teacher says. If no one

    answers, then start a new thread with that one question.)
    Last edited by TheParser; 12-Aug-2011 at 22:31.

  6. #6
    rajan is offline Member
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    Re: Need Guidance

    i would like to know that in the following sentence " a month" and "to the extent of one month", is both are same. What does "to the extent" imply?

    He came a month before the inauguration.

    Further would you please tell me that

    If we write "He came before one month of inaugration. it looks correct to me.

    But if we write " he came a month before the inaugration" How do we place "a month". is there any specific rule for this.

    Thanks




    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    (1) Please let me simplify your sentence even more:

    "The pilot apologized nearly 50 years after the incident."

    (a) I was wrong!!!

    (i) I said that "nearly 50 years" was an adverbial objective (a noun that acts like an

    adverb) that modifies the verb.

    (ii) I just found this similar sentence in my favorite grammar book:

    He came a month before the inauguration.

    The book says that "a month" is an adverbial objective that modifies the preposition

    "before." In other words: He came to the inauguration to the extent of a month before the inauguration.

    (iii) So in "He apologized nearly 50 years after the incident," the adverbial objective

    modifies the preposition "after": He apologized after the incident to the extent of 50

    years after (the incident)./ "He sent a note of condolence nearly 50 years after shooting down the plane": "nearly 50 years" modifies the preposition "after." He sent a note of condolence after (to the extent of 50 years) shooting down the plane.

    Please pardon me for my wrong analysis in my first post. I hope that I am correct this time.


    *****

    I think that the following are "good" English:

    He has sent a note of condolence nearly 50 years after/ afterwards/ later.

    Those words in bold are adverbs. And the adverbial objective ("nearly 50 years")

    modifies the adverb. That is, He sent a note of condolence after/afterwards/later

    to the extent of 50 years.

    (You say that "He sent a note of condolence after nearly 50 years" looks OK to

    you. Well, maybe you are correct. Let's see what a teacher says. If no one

    answers, then start a new thread with that one question.)[/QUOTE]

  7. #7
    TheParser is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Need Guidance

    [QUOTE=rajan;787559]i would like to know that in the following sentence " a month" and "to the extent of one month", is both are same. What does "to the extent" imply?

    He came a month before the inauguration.

    Further would you please tell me that

    If we write "He came before one month of inaugration. it looks correct to me.

    But if we write " he came a month before the inaugration" How do we place "a month". is there any specific rule for this.

    Thanks


    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    (1) You have asked an excellent question.

    (2) Sadly, I do not have the intelligence to give you a good, clear answer.

    (3) If you start a new thread with a similar example, one of the great teachers will

    answer you.

    (4) All that I can do is to give an example from a book entitled A Grammar of

    Present-Day English by R.W. Pence and D.W. Emery:

    He arrived a month before Easter.

    Here is how that book (published by Macmillan Publishers in 1963) explains it:

    Month, a noun, here functions as an adverbial modifier of the prepositional phrase

    before Easter. The meaning = He arrived before Easter by a month.

    ***

    You find "to the extent of a month" a bit difficult to understand. Does "by a month"

    make it a little clearer?

    Tom: Mona came before the inauguration.

    Joe: Oh, really? How much time before the inauguration? One day? One week? Five months?

    Tom: In fact, she came before the inauguration by a month/ to the extent (duration) of a month. That is, a month before.


    ***

    "He came before one month the inauguration" is, I think, considered "wrong" by

    most native speakers. I cannot think of a rule to give you. All that I can suggest is

    that you cannot insert (put) an adverbial objective into the middle of a prepositional

    phrase. The sentence is:

    He + came + before the inauguration.

    If you want to know how early "before the inauguration," you need to place the answer

    in front (not inside) the prepositional phrase:

    He came (a month/ five days/ a year) before the inauguration.

    If there is a rule, maybe it is: Do not "disturb" the prepositional phrase. Put all

    "extra" words (such as adverbial objectives) outside the prepositional phrase:

    He+ sent + a note of condolence + after the incident.

    He sent a note of condolence (nearly 50 years) after the incident.

    NOT: He sent a note of condolence after nearly 50 years the incident.

    (Yes, if you say that, native speakers will understand your meaning, but it is

    not considered proper English to native speakers' ears. For example, some

    learners say: I eat always my vegetables. That sounds very "ugly" to native

    speakers' ears. As you know, the correct order is: I always eat my vegetables.)

  8. #8
    rajan is offline Member
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    Re: Need Guidance

    [QUOTE=TheParser;787646]
    Quote Originally Posted by rajan View Post
    i would like to know that in the following sentence " a month" and "to the extent of one month", is both are same. What does "to the extent" imply?

    He came a month before the inauguration.

    Further would you please tell me that

    If we write "He came before one month of inaugration. it looks correct to me.

    But if we write " he came a month before the inaugration" How do we place "a month". is there any specific rule for this.

    Thanks


    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    (1) You have asked an excellent question.

    (2) Sadly, I do not have the intelligence to give you a good, clear answer.

    (3) If you start a new thread with a similar example, one of the great teachers will

    answer you.

    (4) All that I can do is to give an example from a book entitled A Grammar of

    Present-Day English by R.W. Pence and D.W. Emery:

    He arrived a month before Easter.

    Here is how that book (published by Macmillan Publishers in 1963) explains it:

    Month, a noun, here functions as an adverbial modifier of the prepositional phrase

    before Easter. The meaning = He arrived before Easter by a month.

    ***

    You find "to the extent of a month" a bit difficult to understand. Does "by a month"

    make it a little clearer?

    Tom: Mona came before the inauguration.

    Joe: Oh, really? How much time before the inauguration? One day? One week? Five months?

    Tom: In fact, she came before the inauguration by a month/ to the extent (duration) of a month. That is, a month before.


    ***

    "He came before one month the inauguration" is, I think, considered "wrong" by

    most native speakers. I cannot think of a rule to give you. All that I can suggest is

    that you cannot insert (put) an adverbial objective into the middle of a prepositional

    phrase. The sentence is:

    He + came + before the inauguration.

    If you want to know how early "before the inauguration," you need to place the answer

    in front (not inside) the prepositional phrase:

    He came (a month/ five days/ a year) before the inauguration.

    If there is a rule, maybe it is: Do not "disturb" the prepositional phrase. Put all

    "extra" words (such as adverbial objectives) outside the prepositional phrase:

    He+ sent + a note of condolence + after the incident.

    He sent a note of condolence (nearly 50 years) after the incident.

    NOT: He sent a note of condolence after nearly 50 years the incident.

    (Yes, if you say that, native speakers will understand your meaning, but it is

    not considered proper English to native speakers' ears. For example, some

    learners say: I eat always my vegetables. That sounds very "ugly" to native

    speakers' ears. As you know, the correct order is: I always eat my vegetables.)

    Hi Parser,

    Thanks for your detailed explanation, it helped me in the matter.


    As you told me that "by" is understood in this particular adverbial object which tells time. That is, he sent a condolence note (by/to the extent of) 50 years after shooting down the plane.

    I searched the meaning of "by" in dictionary.com. It says, " "by" is used to indicate extent, after a comparative: it is hotter by five degrees than it was yesterday"

    Iam just guessing about the placement of "adverbial objective" keeping the above explination of "meaning of by" in dictionary.com

    In comparitive sentences, what is being compared comes before the prepostion.

    As we are comparing "nearly 50 years" with "shooting down the plane" thats why adverbial object placement come before preposition.

    Is my guess right? What do you think ?
    Last edited by rajan; 14-Aug-2011 at 08:49.

  9. #9
    TheParser is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Need Guidance

    As we are comparing "nearly 50 years" with "shooting down the plane" thats why adverbial object placement come before preposition.

    Is my guess right? What do you think ?[/QUOTE]
    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****

    (1) First, congratulations on being such a concientious learner. You should, indeed, keep

    asking until someone gives you an answer that satisfies you.

    (2) I am not qualified to give you a yes/no answer to your question.

    (3) All I can do is repeat the "rule" that I thought of:

    Do not "bother" a prepositional phrase. That is, let it alone. Use it as a whole.

    (a) Yesterday I thought of this example:

    (i) Look at this sentence: I eat ice cream on special occasions.

    (ii) Now let's be more specific and use the adverb "only."

    (iii) I can say:

    I only eat ice cream on special occasions.

    I eat ice cream only on special occasions.

    I eat ice cream on special occasions only.

    In those sentences, "only" modifies the prepositional phrase "on special

    occasions." I respected the "wholeness" of the prepositional phrase. I did

    NOT say: "I eat ice cream on only special occasions."

    (4) I suggest that you ask your question in a new thread. Try to give another

    example sentence that interests you. Hopefully, one of the great teachers will give

    you and me the answer.

  10. #10
    TheParser is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Need Guidance

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****

    (1) A few minutes ago, I read this sentence:

    Three years before he died, he wrote a book.

    (Or in regular order: He wrote a book three years before he died.)

    (a) "Before he died" is NOT a prepositional phrase (it's an adverbial

    clause), but the "rule" is the same. That is, native speakers will NOT

    accept: He wrote a book before three years he died.

    (2) Now let's change the adverbial clause to a prepositional phrase

    (no verb):

    He wrote a book three years before his death.

    Native speakers simply will NOT accept: He wrote a book before three

    years his death.

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