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  1. #1
    TheParser is online now Key Member
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    Default I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    (1) I have wonderful news for the hundreds or dozens or three persons who seek a

    grammatical explanation for the contrasted element "not Sue."

    (2) A similar thread has been closed by the powers that be, so I have started this one.

    (3) In the other thread, we had a fascinating discussion: is "not Sue" an ellipsis of

    something, such as "I love Mona, [but I do ] not [love] Sue"? Or could it possibly

    be an appositive?

    (4) I have just discovered a cornucopia of information on the Web that says: YES, it

    could be an appositive. It is simply called a negative appositive.

    (a) As one scholar put it:

    "Negative appositives identify what someone or something is not."

    (5) Here are some examples from the Web:


    Our failures, not our successes, will be remembered.
    The federal government, not the states, is responsible for it.
    The idea, not its expression, is significant.
    Juliet tried to convince Romeo that he had heard a nightingale, not a lark.

    (6) For Reed-Kellogg fans, you can now consider diagramming contrasted

    elements as you would any other appositive.


    P.S. Thanks to Lauralie2 who suggested the appositive idea in last year's thread. She has not posted recently. Hope that she is doing well.
    Last edited by TheParser; 27-Aug-2011 at 23:10.

  2. #2
    konungursvia's Avatar
    konungursvia is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    You're an intelligent person, and it's always a pleasure to read your posts. This one, though I don't understand. Maybe it's because I don't like the diagramming tradition much. The human brain's natural linguistic capacity far exceeds its geometric intuitions, so we understand far more in natural language than we do from diagrams.

    Just my opinion.

    Hope you continue to post interesting things like this though, I could learn something. I really need to, to understand the point here.

    Is it a racist joke I once heard in the seventies? Mona, Sue....

  3. #3
    TheParser is online now Key Member
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    Default Re: I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    You're an intelligent person, and it's always a pleasure to read your posts. This one, though I don't understand. Maybe it's because I don't like the diagramming tradition much. The human brain's natural linguistic capacity far exceeds its geometric intuitions, so we understand far more in natural language than we do from diagrams.

    Just my opinion.

    Hope you continue to post interesting things like this though, I could learn something. I really need to, to understand the point here.

    Is it a racist joke I once heard in the seventies? Mona, Sue....
    (1) Thank you for your kind note.

    (2) Diagramming (the old-fashioned kind -- not the so-called "trees" of transformational grammar ) really can help ordinary people like me to better understand grammar. I can appreciate the fact, however, that Reed-Kellogg must seem pretty juvenile to language professionals such as you. (Of course, most schools have long stop teaching Reed-Kellogg, for the students simply refuse to do it.)

    (3) I know nothing about that joke, and I prefer not to know. As a wise person once said: Be careful what you put into your mind. You will never get rid of it.

  4. #4
    konungursvia's Avatar
    konungursvia is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    Okay, I won't tell the joke. Besides, I did my PhD on what makes jokes funny. So I'll tell you the beginning, because that might be funny enough.

    I'm on the bus and I see a Frenchman in a beret, who keeps rubbing his index finger under his nostrils, saying "Ah, Fifi."

    The rest involves some African American who sniffs his whole arm and mentions the name "Mona." But I can't remember the actual joke, I do declare.

    Besides, it may have been sexist or improper to tell it. So I will not.

  5. #5
    konungursvia's Avatar
    konungursvia is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    By the way, my get out of jail free card is from Cicero:

    Haec enim ridentur vel sola vel maxime quae notant et designant turpitudinem, aliquam non turpiter.

    It means that what makes people laugh the most readily is something not rude at all in and of itself, which invites the listener to think of something rude.

    Like that Irish song, with rimes that make you expect rude words, but ends up being completely innocent. Anyone remember the words?

  6. #6
    TheParser is online now Key Member
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    Default Re: I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    [QUOTE=konungursvia;793316]Okay, I won't tell the joke.

    Thank you.

  7. #7
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    Like that Irish song, with rimes that make you expect rude words, but ends up being completely innocent. Anyone remember the words?

    I think one of my former students knows the song. If you want to know it badly enough, I will ask him about it. I can still see him surrounded by his female classmates all giggling to hear him sing it.

    Regarding Reed-Kellogg, I am not defensive at all, but proud. Diagramming sentences in that way may not be perfect, but at the very least, it is a very good start. And it is so much more interesting and beautiful than anything else I have seen.

    In fact, not to stir something up, but it seems as if tree diagrams and (what is it?) phrase structure diagrams(?) have retreated from this forum.

    Kondorosi (anybody remember him?) (He was banned from the forum) is one of the only examples I know of of a non-American who went to the bother to master the Reed-Kellogg language.

  8. #8
    TheParser is online now Key Member
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    Default Re: I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    [QUOTE=Frank Antonson;793324]



    Regarding Reed-Kellogg, I am not defensive at all, but proud. Diagramming sentences in that way may not be perfect, but at the very least, it is a very good start. And it is so much more interesting and beautiful than anything else I have seen.


    (1) Viva Reed-Kellogg!!!

    (2) Now that I am going to diagram contrasted elements as an appositive,

    I have one question: where should I put the word "not" in the diagram?


    Thank you

  9. #9
    Afit is offline Member
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    Default Re: I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    "I love Mona, not Sue"?

    This sentence is open to two interpretations to me:

    1. It is I who love Mona, and not Sue.
    1. I love Mona, but I do not love Sue.

    There is an understood coordinator "but" in each case after the comma (asyndentic coordination).

    1. I -- but not Sue -- love Mona. -- With the first interpretation, I detect some degree of similarity to a sentence with an interpolated conjoin.

    2. I love Mona, and/but not Sue -- the second conjoin is probably an elliptical clause which is appended as an afterthought to the first clause.

  10. #10
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: I love Mona, NOT SUE.

    Dear Afit,

    I love it when you use all of those big terms that I do not understand at all!

    But also, one of the things I love best about using R-K diagramming is that there are no terms in the diagram at all.

    Can you, Afit, R-K? That "R-K" , incidentally seems to be a verb which was born on this forum. I believe that the Parser was the father.

    Frank

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