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  1. #1
    sula54 is offline Junior Member
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    Question "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    What does this sentence actually mean?

    1. What is the time you know the fact that the shop is closed?

    2. What is the time for the shop to close?

    3. Do you know what time the shop is closed?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    "When do you know the shop is closed?" = "At what time(of day) would you know (that) the shop is closed?"

  3. #3
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    Mister Micawber is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    .
    If this is a native-speaker utterance, then I think it more likely means 'under what conditions do you know the shop is closed?'. The answer would be such as 'I know it's closed when the shades are drawn'.
    .

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    sula54 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Micawber
    .
    If this is a native-speaker utterance, then I think it more likely means 'under what conditions do you know the shop is closed?'. The answer would be such as 'I know it's closed when the shades are drawn'.
    .
    Bingo~~! That isn't a native-speaker utterance. It's something I found in an English learning book in Chinese. (Chinese author) The author suggest that the sentence means, "what is the time for the shop to close?" The usage of "do you know" here just like "do you think" in "When do you think he'll be back?" this sentence.

    However, I feel that "do you think" in "When do you think he'll be back?" this sentence is pretty like to "in your opinion", but if we over-explain the usage and make it into "do you know" in "When do you know the shop is closed?", we are actually to confuse many students.

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    Default Re: "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    'under what conditions do you know the shop is closed?'
    'under what conditions do you know the shop is closed?' = 'How do you know the shop is closed?'

    When denotes time while How refers to 'conditions'/'circumstances', or am I wrong?

    e.g.

    A: When are you coming to the party?
    B: I'll come at 7p.m.

    C: How will go to the party?
    D: I'll try to get invited.
    Last edited by Temico; 04-Oct-2005 at 11:40.

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    Talking Re: "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    NOne of the above...

  7. #7
    Mister Micawber's Avatar
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    Default Re: "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    Now I see, Sula-- the non-native writer has gotten the word order confused. He should have written: Do you know when the shop closes?, which means what is the closing time?

    Temico, I agree that when usually relates to time, but my example above is a reasonably natural one. Here's another: When do you know you've had enough to drink?-- When I can't see my glass any more! Here, when does have a time reference-- it means at what point.
    .

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    Default Re: "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    "Bingo~~! That isn't a native-speaker's utterance. It's something I found in an English learning book in Chinese. (Chinese author) The author suggests that the sentence means, "what is the time for the shop to close?". The usage of "do you know" here is just like "do you think" in the sentence "When do you think he'll be back?"

    However, I feel that "do you think" in the sentence "When do you think he'll be back?", is pretty like (to) "in your opinion", but if we over-explain the usage and (make it into) change it to "do you know" in "When do you know the shop is closed?", we are actually (to confuse) confusing many students."

    "Bingo~~!" It seems that that "Chinese author" is not the only non-native writer who has gotten the word order confused!!
    五十步笑一百步
    Last edited by Temico; 04-Oct-2005 at 22:57.

  9. #9
    sula54 is offline Junior Member
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    Wink Re: "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Temico
    "Bingo~~! That isn't a native-speaker's utterance. It's something I found in an English learning book in Chinese. (Chinese author) The author suggests that the sentence means, "what is the time for the shop to close?". The usage of "do you know" here is just like "do you think" in the sentence "When do you think he'll be back?"

    However, I feel that "do you think" in the sentence "When do you think he'll be back?", is pretty like (to) "in your opinion", but if we over-explain the usage and (make it into) change it to "do you know" in "When do you know the shop is closed?", we are actually (to confuse) confusing many students."

    "Bingo~~!" It seems that that "Chinese author" is not the only non-native writer who has gotten the word order confused!!
    五十步笑一百步

    Firstly, I have to thank you for correcting my writing and, yes, you are right I am not a non-native writer and therefore I do make a lot of mistakes. However, the key is he is an author for English learning books but I am not and something makes it more scaring is he put this sentence into his books to test students and he also put a paragraph and Chinese translation to analyze this sentence. Since he has got high position in English teaching field here, although I doubt about the explanation of this sentence, I am afraid of telling myself he is wrong this time. That’s why I discuss it here. Isn’t here an English forum?

    In addition, I don’t think the mistakes I made in my last reply are the mistakes of “the word order”. Apparently, they are mistakes of “forgetting to put the articles and be verb” and I think these mistakes will not make you difficult to understand what I mean. I know grammar is important, but to make other people understand your thinking is more important then grammar. Do you think there are any grammar mistakes in this sentence “when do you know the shop is closed?” I have to say I can’t find any grammatical mistakes in the sentence, but I really don’t know whether he is asking me “the time I know” or “the time the shop is closed”.

    Finally, Thank you again for your correction. However, there one thing I think you should know….

    You had better to use “五十步笑百步”. It is far more popular and accurate than “五十步笑百步”.

    Here is where the original phrase comes from:
    孟子對曰:「王好戰,請以戰喻:填然鼓之,兵刃既接,棄甲曳兵而走,或百步而後止,或五十步而 後止。. 以五十步笑百步,則何如?」

    Since your first language is Chinese, I think you know it very well.
    Last edited by sula54; 05-Oct-2005 at 06:36.

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    Default Re: "When do you know the shop is closed?"

    “五十步笑一百步”.
    FYI, I didn't know the Chinese equivalent of "A kettle calling a pot black." and had to ask a friend(a teacher) who replied with the above quote. Whether the "一" is removed or not, the meaning is still the same. If you insist that it is still wrong, then you should now know that Chinese teachers make mistakes in their own language too and not only in foreign languages!

    , I don’t think the mistakes I made in my last reply are the mistakes of “the word order”.
    Read your last reply again and see where you placed, "the sentence".(two times)
    Last edited by Temico; 05-Oct-2005 at 09:45.

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