"When do you know the shop is closed?"

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sula54

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"When do you know the shop is closed?"

What does this sentence actually mean?

1. What is the time you know the fact that the shop is closed?

2. What is the time for the shop to close?

3. Do you know what time the shop is closed?
 

Temico

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"When do you know the shop is closed?" = "At what time(of day) would you know (that) the shop is closed?"
 

Mister Micawber

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.
If this is a native-speaker utterance, then I think it more likely means 'under what conditions do you know the shop is closed?'. The answer would be such as 'I know it's closed when the shades are drawn'.
.
 

sula54

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Mister Micawber said:
.
If this is a native-speaker utterance, then I think it more likely means 'under what conditions do you know the shop is closed?'. The answer would be such as 'I know it's closed when the shades are drawn'.
.

Bingo~~! That isn't a native-speaker utterance. It's something I found in an English learning book in Chinese. (Chinese author) The author suggest that the sentence means, "what is the time for the shop to close?" The usage of "do you know" here just like "do you think" in "When do you think he'll be back?" this sentence.

However, I feel that "do you think" in "When do you think he'll be back?" this sentence is pretty like to "in your opinion", but if we over-explain the usage and make it into "do you know" in "When do you know the shop is closed?", we are actually to confuse many students.
 

Temico

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'under what conditions do you know the shop is closed?'

'under what conditions do you know the shop is closed?' = 'How do you know the shop is closed?'

When denotes time while How refers to 'conditions'/'circumstances', or am I wrong?

e.g.

A: When are you coming to the party?
B: I'll come at 7p.m.

C: How will go to the party?
D: I'll try to get invited.
 
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Mister Micawber

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Now I see, Sula-- the non-native writer has gotten the word order confused. He should have written: Do you know when the shop closes?, which means what is the closing time?

Temico, I agree that when usually relates to time, but my example above is a reasonably natural one. Here's another: When do you know you've had enough to drink?-- When I can't see my glass any more! Here, when does have a time reference-- it means at what point.
.
 

Temico

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"Bingo~~! That isn't a native-speaker's utterance. It's something I found in an English learning book in Chinese. (Chinese author) The author suggests that the sentence means, "what is the time for the shop to close?". The usage of "do you know" here is just like "do you think" in the sentence "When do you think he'll be back?"

However, I feel that "do you think" in the sentence "When do you think he'll be back?", is pretty like (to) "in your opinion", but if we over-explain the usage and (make it into) change it to "do you know" in "When do you know the shop is closed?", we are actually (to confuse) confusing many students."

"Bingo~~!" It seems that that "Chinese author" is not the only non-native writer who has gotten the word order confused!!
五十步笑一百步
 
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sula54

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Temico said:
"Bingo~~! That isn't a native-speaker's utterance. It's something I found in an English learning book in Chinese. (Chinese author) The author suggests that the sentence means, "what is the time for the shop to close?". The usage of "do you know" here is just like "do you think" in the sentence "When do you think he'll be back?"

However, I feel that "do you think" in the sentence "When do you think he'll be back?", is pretty like (to) "in your opinion", but if we over-explain the usage and (make it into) change it to "do you know" in "When do you know the shop is closed?", we are actually (to confuse) confusing many students."

"Bingo~~!" It seems that that "Chinese author" is not the only non-native writer who has gotten the word order confused!!
五十步笑一百步


Firstly, I have to thank you for correcting my writing and, yes, you are right I am not a non-native writer and therefore I do make a lot of mistakes. However, the key is he is an author for English learning books but I am not and something makes it more scaring is he put this sentence into his books to test students and he also put a paragraph and Chinese translation to analyze this sentence. Since he has got high position in English teaching field here, although I doubt about the explanation of this sentence, I am afraid of telling myself he is wrong this time. That’s why I discuss it here. Isn’t here an English forum?

In addition, I don’t think the mistakes I made in my last reply are the mistakes of “the word order”. Apparently, they are mistakes of “forgetting to put the articles and be verb” and I think these mistakes will not make you difficult to understand what I mean. I know grammar is important, but to make other people understand your thinking is more important then grammar. Do you think there are any grammar mistakes in this sentence “when do you know the shop is closed?” I have to say I can’t find any grammatical mistakes in the sentence, but I really don’t know whether he is asking me “the time I know” or “the time the shop is closed”.

Finally, Thank you again for your correction. However, there one thing I think you should know….

You had better to use “五十步笑百步”. It is far more popular and accurate than “五十步笑百步”.

Here is where the original phrase comes from:
孟子對曰:「王好戰,請以戰喻:填然鼓之,兵刃既接,棄甲曳兵而走,或百步而後止,或五十步而後止。. 以五十步笑百步,則何如?」

Since your first language is Chinese, I think you know it very well.
 
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Temico

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“五十步笑一百步”.

FYI, I didn't know the Chinese equivalent of "A kettle calling a pot black." and had to ask a friend(a teacher) who replied with the above quote. Whether the "一" is removed or not, the meaning is still the same. If you insist that it is still wrong, then you should now know that Chinese teachers make mistakes in their own language too and not only in foreign languages!

, I don’t think the mistakes I made in my last reply are the mistakes of “the word order”.

Read your last reply again and see where you placed, "the sentence".(two times)
 
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Casiopea

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I stand with Mister Micawber on this one. "When" semantically pairs with "know" to express a cause; i.e. what would cause you to believe the store is closed:
sula54 said:
"When do you know the shop is closed?"
If I were asked that question, my response would be along the lines of, "When the shades are drawn" or "When the "closed" sign is posted. That's what would cause me to believe the store is closed" or "That's when I would know if the store is closed." Now, if we change the verb, replace "know" with "think", the result is quite different:

Max: When do you think the store is closed?
Pat: I think it is closed on Sunday and holidays.

I also agree with your interpretation for 五十步笑百步. The number marker 一 , one, is not required in colloquial speech.

EX: 五十步笑一百步 (一百, one hundred)
EX: 五十步笑百步 (百, hundred)

"hundred" (百) says it all. ;-) Adding 一 (one) is somewhat redundant, even in English which is subject to article constraints, and so "a hundred", never "hundred" on its own.

Now, tell me more about that idiom. I understand it's similar to English "the pot calling the kettle black", but what's the literal translation in Chinese? The closest I can get to its meaning, me being a non-native speaker of Chinese, is 50 steps to every 100 smiles? Is that right? Of course not, but I'm trying. :-D
 

Casiopea

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Temico said:
"Bingo~~!" It seems that that "Chinese author" is not the only non-native writer who has gotten the word order confused!!
五十步笑一百步
Temico, it was kind of you to correct Sula's English, and it's wonderful to know you're around to help out, but berating isn't something we here at UsingEnglish approve of, so you may want to consider taking me up on my request that - and this now being the third time I've had to ask - to please read the Forum rules. :up:

Our apologies to Sula. :oops:
 

Temico

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but berating.....

I quote from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary(Tenth Edition):
berate--v. scold or criticise angrily

"Berating"?? Who was "berating", may I ask?? I just reminded him/her of a Chinese proverb which is imbedded in our Chinese culture which also includes "giving face" to our peers. If I wanted to berate anybody, I'd do it in English for all to see and not with a Chinese proverb tucked away in a corner!

Ask(or PM) Sula to translate the idiom/proverb for you and you'd know who is cluelessly doing the "berating" in this forum.
 
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sula54

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Casiopea said:
Now, tell me more about that idiom. I understand it's similar to English "the pot calling the kettle black", but what's the literal translation in Chinese? The closest I can get to its meaning, me being a non-native speaker of Chinese, is 50 steps to every 100 smiles? Is that right? Of course not, but I'm trying. :-D

Dear Casiopea,

Thank you for your explanation for my question and here is the easiest explanation about “五十步笑百步”. (But I have to say sorry first due to my bad English, so if there are any mistakes please do correct me.)

----------------------------------------------------------------

Once a king said to a philosopher, “I have already made more effort on my kingdom then the other kings whose kingdoms are beside me, but why isn’t the number of my people increasing and the number of people in other countries decreasing?”

Then the philosopher said to the king, “my king, because you like fighting in a war, please allow me to use a war as an example. When a war is breaking out and one nation defeats the other. The defeated soldiers all flee away from the war field. Some of them run 50 steps then stop, but some of them stop after running more than 100 steps. Is that right for the men who run 50 steps to laugh at the men who run 100 steps?”

Then the king replies, “No, they just don’t run till 100 steps, but they also run away from the war field.”……….

----------------------------------------------------------------

Here we can see what the philosopher try to imply ---- the king doesn’t really make more effort than other kings. Therefore, in Chinese “五十步笑百步” means someone is teasing other person without being better than him or her.
“五十步笑一百步” is all right in fact, but since it is from this philosopher’s book. It is always better to use every word exactly from the passage.
 

Temico

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Therefore, in Chinese “五十步笑百步” means someone is laughing at the other person without being better than him or her.

To Casiopea,
Don't you think that it's high time you reinstated my post instead of deleting it?
 

Casiopea

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You're welcome, Sula. And thank you for yours. It was very interesting. :-D:up:

OK. So, let me get this straight in my mind. :) The gloss for 五十步笑百步 is as follows, 五十步 (fifty paces) 笑 (laughs [at]) 百步 (100 paces), which means, a man who runs 50 paces away from the enemy and then laughs at a man who runs further, 100 paces away from the enemy, ridicules himself because he, too, is a coward, which is similar in meaning to the English idiom, "the pot calling the kettle black", right?

I get it!
Thanks.:cool:

So, in other words, the philosopher was trying to tell the king that his warring ways are directly related to the kingdom's population? Help. :-?
 

Tdol

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Temico said:
When denotes time while How refers to 'conditions'/'circumstances', or am I wrong?
I don't think the distinction is always so clear. 'When' can carry a similar meaning to the circumstances suggested earlier. While its customary meaning is time, time and circumstance can blur a bit with a repeated action. :-D
 

Temico

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I don't think the distinction is always so clear. 'When' can carry a similar meaning to the circumstances suggested earlier. While its customary meaning is time, time and circumstance can blur a bit with a repeated action.

I see. So if you were to ask a person, "When will the store open, please?", s/he can answer, "At 7am." or "When you see the shutters opened.", both replies being perfectly acceptable to you since "time and circumstance can blur a bit", right?
 

ttiwel

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sula54 said:
"When do you know the shop is closed?"

What does this sentence actually mean?

1. What is the time you know the fact that the shop is closed?

2. What is the time for the shop to close?

3. Do you know what time the shop is closed?

As a native speaker, I would probably take it to mean something more along the lines of "How can you tell if the shop is closed?" If someone asked me I would say something like "When the lights are off" "When the doors are locked" or "When the 'closed' sign is up".
 

Tdol

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Temico said:
I see. So if you were to ask a person, "When will the store open, please?", s/he can answer, "At 7am." or "When you see the shutters opened.", both replies being perfectly acceptable to you since "time and circumstance can blur a bit", right?

You're moving well away from the original sentence. If you ask 'When will you know the shop is open?', it would be a different question. I said there is an area where the distinction can blur a bit- that is very different from saying they are synonymous. I did not say they were synonyms. We can use 'when' and 'where' interchangeably sometimes in relative clauses, but that doesn't mean they are synonyms. It is not right to say that if something happens in certain contexts it should be true of all. Also 'when you see the shutters up' could equally be a time reference. :)
 
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