Are these two sentences right in standard grammar?

Status
Not open for further replies.

roseriver1012

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
China
Current Location
China
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam occured yesterday.
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam occuring yesterday.
Are these two sentences right? If not, how to correct them? Thanks for your replies!:cool:
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam that/which occurred yesterday. :tick:
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam occurring yesterday.

The second is acceptable.
 

Amigos4

VIP Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam that occurred yesterday.
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam occuring yesterday. This sentence is incorrect. (When did the traffic jam occur? It occurred yesterday.)
Are these two sentences right? If not, how to correct them? Thanks for your replies!:cool:
`
 

Amigos4

VIP Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam that/which occurred yesterday. :tick:
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam occurring yesterday.

The second is acceptable.
Fivejedjon, you can type faster than I can!!! :up:

Why is the second sentence acceptable?
 

roseriver1012

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
China
Current Location
China
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam that/which occurred yesterday. :tick:
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam occurring yesterday.

The second is acceptable.

The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam occurring yesterday.

Since the traffic jam occurred yesterday, why do we use the form of v.+ing as the attribute of "the traffic jam"?
 

roseriver1012

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
China
Current Location
China
Fivejedjon, you can type faster than I can!!! :up:

Why is the second sentence acceptable?


I want to know it, too! I've discussed the sentence with some teachers. Those who hold the opposite opinion gave me some other example sentences: Experts digging in eastern Canada thirty years ago found a village of houses just like those found in Greenland, Iceland and Norway. The meeting happening yesterday made a great decision. That made me think my previous idea was wrong.

Is the sentence right or not ?:?:
 

Rover_KE

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
Why is the second sentence acceptable?

It's acceptable because it's commonly used and understood by native speakers who find nothing wrong with it.

Rover
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
The -ing participle, unfortunately known as the present participle, can be used in sentences referring to past or present time:

Closing the door firmly, he turned to face the man.

Not liking her very much, I don't spend time with her
.
 

Rover_KE

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
Roseriver, as your question was about The traffic jam occurring yesterday, that would have been a better thread title.

Rover
 

Afit

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
Dutch
Home Country
Europe
Current Location
Europe
{REMOVED PERSONAL COMMENTS - MODERATOR}


The drunk driver is to blame for [the traffic jam occuring yesterday]. :tick:
Explicitness in noun phrase postmodification may vary considerably.
From the most explicit to the most implicit:

- the traffic jam which was occuring yesterday -- finite non-reduced relative clause as postmodifier to "the traffic jam", to a noun phrase (NP)
- the traffic jam [STRIKE]which was[/STRIKE] occuring yesterday -- tenseless -ing participle as postmodifier; WHIZ-deletion
- the traffic jam [STRIKE]which is[/STRIKE] occuring now -- tenseless -ing participle as postmodifier; WHIZ-deletion
- the traffic jam [STRIKE]which was occuring[/STRIKE] yesterday -- verbless clause as postmodifier
 
Last edited by a moderator:

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
{Edited to remove reference to portion of post now deleted.}
Explicitness in noun phrase postmodification may vary considerably.
From the most explicit to the most implicit:

- the traffic jam which was occuring yesterday -- finite non-reduced relative clause as postmodifier to "the traffic jam", to a noun phrase (NP)
- the traffic jam [STRIKE]which was[/STRIKE] occuring yesterday -- tenseless -ing participle as postmodifier; WHIZ-deletion
- the traffic jam [STRIKE]which is[/STRIKE] occuring now -- tenseless -ing participle as postmodifier; WHIZ-deletion
- the traffic jam [STRIKE]which was occuring[/STRIKE] yesterday -- verbless clause as postmodifier
The problem with all that is that 'the traffic jam which was occuring yesterday' is a pretty unnatural clause to start with. The starting point is more likely to be 'the traffic jam that occurred yesterday'.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
The drunk driver is to blame for the traffic jam occured yesterday.


REMINDER: NOT A TEACHER


(1) You have already been given excellent answers.

(2) I just wanted to point out that although your first sentence (the one without the

relative pronoun "that") is now considered incorrect English, kindly remember that

in earlier English it was not that uncommon, among some speakers.

(3) So if you read such sentences, don't be too shocked.

(4) Here are some examples from the great George O. Curme in his masterpiece

A Grammar of the English Language:


I haue [have] a neece [niece] is a merchant's wife.

I bring him news will raise his drooping spirits.

It's the like of that talk you'd hear from a man would be losing his mind.

There's no investment in the world would give you a return like that.

Any man can't fight for his friends [had] better be dead.

(5) The good professor was writing about 80 years ago. At that time, he

says, such sentences were still popular among many speakers of Irish English and,

he adds, in the "mountain dialect of [the American state of] Kentucky."
 
Last edited:

Barb_D

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Member Type
Other
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Personal comments are not welcome. If you disagree with advice given by others, you can do so politely. Characterizing the entire nature of another person based on a remark in a thread is neither desired not tolerated. Everyone here is a volunteer, doing the best they can.

Further personal comments, in this thread or any other, will be deleted, the thread will be closed, and infractions are possible.
 

Afit

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
Dutch
Home Country
Europe
Current Location
Europe
It's acceptable because it's commonly used and understood by native speakers who find nothing wrong with it.

Rover

Remove this too, Barbara. Or is it a kind of remark that only makes 'me sick?
 

roseriver1012

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
China
Current Location
China
Roseriver, as your question was about The traffic jam occurring yesterday, that would have been a better thread title.

Rover


You are right.
 

roseriver1012

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
China
Current Location
China
REMINDER: NOT A TEACHER


(1) You have already been given excellent answers.

(2) I just wanted to point out that although your first sentence (the one without the

relative pronoun "that") is now considered incorrect English, kindly remember that

in earlier English it was not that uncommon, among some speakers.

(3) So if you read such sentences, don't be too shocked.

(4) Here are some examples from the great George O. Curme in his masterpiece

A Grammar of the English Language:


I haue [have] a neece [niece] is a merchant's wife.

I bring him news will raise his drooping spirits.

It's the like of that talk you'd hear from a man would be losing his mind.

There's no investment in the world would give you a return like that.

Any man can't fight for his friends [had] better be dead.

(5) The good professor was writing about 80 years ago. At that time, he

says, such sentences were still popular among many speakers of Irish English and,

he adds, in the "mountain dialect of [the American state of] Kentucky."


Thanks for your such detailed reply! But that is too high a level from the language I am in touch with for the moment. Anyway, you've broaden my horizon. Thanks again.
 

roseriver1012

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
China
Current Location
China
{Edited to remove reference to portion of post now deleted.}
The problem with all that is that 'the traffic jam which was occuring yesterday' is a pretty unnatural clause to start with. The starting point is more likely to be 'the traffic jam that occurred yesterday'.


The problem with all that is that 'the traffic jam which was occuring yesterday' is a pretty unnatural clause to start with. That is exactly where my puzzle lies! the traffic jam occurring yesterday just leads me to think of that sentence! So I couldn't accept it as a right one in the first place. And I also wonder why people both from English-speaking countries also hold opposite opinions about it.
 
Last edited:

roseriver1012

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
China
Current Location
China
{REMOVED PERSONAL COMMENTS - MODERATOR}



Explicitness in noun phrase postmodification may vary considerably.
From the most explicit to the most implicit:

- the traffic jam which was occuring yesterday -- finite non-reduced relative clause as postmodifier to "the traffic jam", to a noun phrase (NP)
- the traffic jam [STRIKE]which was[/STRIKE] occuring yesterday -- tenseless -ing participle as postmodifier; WHIZ-deletion
- the traffic jam [STRIKE]which is[/STRIKE] occuring now -- tenseless -ing participle as postmodifier; WHIZ-deletion
- the traffic jam [STRIKE]which was occuring[/STRIKE] yesterday -- verbless clause as postmodifier


Your reply is too professional! I can't follow you with my shallow knowledge!:cry:
 

White Hat

Banned
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Russian Federation
Current Location
Russian Federation
The -ing participle, unfortunately known as the present participle, can be used in sentences referring to past or present time:

Closing the door firmly, he turned to face the man.

Not liking her very much, I don't spend time with her
.

But in your examples it's not a present participle - it's an adverbial participle.
 

White Hat

Banned
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Russian Federation
Current Location
Russian Federation
It's acceptable because it's commonly used and understood by native speakers who find nothing wrong with it.

Rover

The only problem with it is that it ("...traffic jam occurring yesterday") sounds a bit awkward. I agree it would make sense in a headline.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top