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Thread: type of object

  1. #11
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: type of object

    I'm asking about the statement that prepositional phrases can 'never' function as subject complements. In the example I gave it functions adjectivally (well-informed). If a 'person's on the game' it would function like a noun phrase (a prostitute). They're both prepositional phrases and both function in the way that Red Pencil says is impossible.

    How should we analyse 'Lassie's outside'?

  2. #12
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    Default Re: type of object

    My bad! Terminology. Subject complements are of two types: predicate nominals and predicate adjectives. In my post, I added "prepositional phrases" (form) and "adverbials" (function), which, according to RP, are not called subject complements. It is a terminology thAng - for RP.

  3. #13
    red pencil is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: type of object

    Common linking verb forms like be, am, is, are, was, were, being, and been also function as “state of being” verbs which simply point out that something exists. State of being verbs do not show action, nor do they “link” the subject with a subject complement, a word that either renames (predicate nominative) or describes (predicate adjective) it.

    My keys are in my pocket
    He is on the ball.
    Lassie is outside.

    The prepositional phrase in my pocket does not describe keys, the subject of the first sentence, nor does the phrase on the ball describe he, the subject of the second sentence. The adverb outside in the third sentence, simply tells where Lassie is existing.

    The S-LV-PP (subject-linking verb-prepositional phrase) sentence pattern does not exist, nor does the S-LV-ADV (subject-linking verb-adverb) pattern. Assumptions to the contrary are syntactically baseless.

    Conversely, S-LV-PA (subject-linking verb-predicate adjective) and S-LV-PN (subject-linking verb-predicate nominative) sentence patterns do indeed exist and suberbly illustrate the role of our only subject complements, the predicate adjective and the predicate nominative.
    Last edited by red pencil; 10-Oct-2005 at 17:47.

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    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: type of object

    'On the ball' describes the person as much as 'he is clever', IMO. In this case, I don't mean that he is playing football.
    Last edited by Tdol; 10-Oct-2005 at 17:52.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: type of object

    Quote Originally Posted by red pencil
    The S-LV-PP (subject-linking verb-prepositional phrase) sentence pattern does not exist, nor does the S-LV-ADV (subject-linking verb-adverb) pattern.
    Ah, I see. The terminology is different. All right, then. Given, say, "She is outside", wherein the preposition "outside" functions as an adverb, which neither describes the subject nor renames it, what is the verb called (now, these days)?

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    Default Re: type of object

    Quote Originally Posted by tdol
    'On the ball' describes the person as much as 'he is clever', IMO. In this case, I don't mean that he is playing football.
    Obviously, RP is looking at it from a literal point of view. I'd agree.

    If he is (sitting) on a ball, then 'on the ball' functions as an adverb of place, and the verb "is" a ____ verb (RP has yet to tell us).

    If 'on the ball' is idiomatic; i.e., clever, then it functions as a subject complement, notably a predicate adjective; it describes the subject (attributively). The verb is LV, linking.

  7. #17
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: type of object

    Personally, I see 'he's outside' as a link between person and place. This could be disputed, but I think that the only connection with place is in the adverb- the verb links the two, but Red Pencil sees this as a different category. OK, I'll accept that distinction for the purposes of this discussion, but I don't see how the idiomatic use of 'on the ball' can be characterised as anything other than adjectival- describing. The two examples I gave are both idiomatic, but seem to me to fit the patterns for Red Pencil's groupings. 'On the ball' can both refer to a specific occasion, which might fall into his 'state of being' group, but can equally apply all the time, which is adjectival.

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    Default Re: type of object

    ...Red Pencil sees this as a different category...
    Although I'm not sure if this article might interest you all or not, let me refer you to it; seems interesting!
    http://www.philosophyofreligion.info...predicate.html

    G. Frege presented some answer to that question, and I've read that many philosophers were touched by his solution, they say...

  9. #19
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    Default Re: type of object

    Quote Originally Posted by tdol
    Personally, I see 'he's outside' as a link between person and place. This could be disputed, . . .
    Easily, too. What we've been given so far, "is" of the type descriptive;i.e., LV, and "is" of the type location;i.e., V-Adv appear to differ semantically, so, too, structurally:

    He is on the ball. (V-Adv; literal sense)
    He is on the ball. (LV-PA; idiomatic sense)

    I may be wrong, of course, but, hey, I'm working from what we've been given.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: type of object

    Quote Originally Posted by Roro
    Although I'm not sure if this article might interest you all or not, let me refer you to it; seems interesting!
    http://www.philosophyofreligion.info...predicate.html

    G. Frege presented some answer to that question, and I've read that many philosophers were touched by his solution, they say...
    Hmm, wonder what happens if you present this argument at the Pearly Gates:
    The ontological argument therefore fails, because its assumption that an existent God is greater than a non-existent God is false; the two are equal in greatness, because they are identical.

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