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  1. #1
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    Default Having moved through

    The decomposition for this participle phrase is "After the idea moved through". Whenever I encounter this kind of phrases, I have to extract the conjuction for proper interpretation. But sometimes even comparing with the main clause doesn't help to find the proper one as sometimes multiple ones seem possible.

    For example, if replaced by "As (because) the idea moved through", it also seems to make sense. I posted a similar thread before, but do native speakers all perceive this kind of phrases in the same way, or have different views? Is there a fixed rule or is it ambiguous?

    ex)Without some proper stages, a tree will not bear fruit in abundance. Just like a fruit tree, when an idea has overcome all obstables, resisted all threats, and established a place for itself in the world, it will finally begin to bear fruit - the first stage of blessing. Having moved through conception, action, testing and endurance, the idea is now in the 'Perfect Gift' stage of its evolution. In other words, the owner of the idea can now begin to enjoy the fruits of his or her labors.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Having moved through

    I've tried to find any material explaining participle phrase on the internet, but found little, there seems to be no other help...

  3. #3
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: Having moved through

    Having + past participle suggests completion, so your version with after is right. I can see what you're getting at with as/because since there is the idea that completion enables to next stage, but I see the core meaning as after- completion of these stages is the necessary element to reaching the Perfect Gift stage.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Having moved through

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    Having + past participle suggests completion, so your version with after is right. I can see what you're getting at with as/because since there is the idea that completion enables to next stage, but I see the core meaning as after- completion of these stages is the necessary element to reaching the Perfect Gift stage.
    Do native speakers choose different conjuctions in different participle phrases? It's really hard to select the right one, so this seems to be one of the hardest parts in English. Do you have any secret for proper selection?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Having moved through

    Can someone let me know which material is good for understanding participle phrase? A comprehensive material would be good for me as this big subject couldn't be dealt with here.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Having moved through

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    Do native speakers choose different conjuctions in different participle phrases? It's really hard to select the right one, so this seems to be one of the hardest parts in English. Do you have any secret for proper selection?
    No. Very few speakers think about what they say at all - the words just emerge from their mouths. Quite often, what comes out is different from what a thoughtful, educated person might write.

    You will have noticed in this forum that native speakers who have studied and taught the language for many years do not always agree on what is the correct/best/most natural word or expression. Despite what many grammarians appeared to believe in the past, there are many, many grey areas in the language. What may be fairly normal and acceptable in everyday speech may become suspect when analysed.

    Some learners worry about this far more than most native speakers. Native speakers who are concerned lest they be thought to be uneducated will gradually acquire the speech habits of those who, they assume, speak 'properly', but such speakers comprise a fairly small fraction of the population these days. Many teachers say and write things that would have had my English master in despair fifty years ago, but that is one of the joys of English - it is not fixed, and we have a degree of freedom in how we express ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    Can someone let me know which material is good for understanding participle phrase? A comprehensive material would be good for me as this big subject couldn't be dealt with here.
    Don't forget that participle phrases are not natural to most native speakers. We are taught how to use them at school, and then most of us promptly forget, and never use them again. You may get some suggestions in response to your question, but you will be trying to reach an artificial level to which most native speakers do not aspire.

    Very few native speakers would speak, or write, of an idea moving through their minds. The example in your original post is writing that very few of us would produce, and few read.

    At a more mundane level, some of us might write, "Having moved/passed/walked through the displays in the foyer, the party walked towards the stage", but very few, except a television announcer reading from a script, would say it. We would be far more likely to say something like, "After/when they had moved/etc throught the displays in the foyer, the party walked towards the stage", or even more likely, "The party moved/etc through the displays in the foyer and walked towards the stage".

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Having moved through

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    No. Very few speakers think about what they say at all - the words just emerge from their mouths. Quite often, what comes out is different from what a thoughtful, educated person might write.

    You will have noticed in this forum that native speakers who have studied and taught the language for many years do not always agree on what is the correct/best/most natural word or expression. Despite what many grammarians appeared to believe in the past, there are many, many grey areas in the language. What may be fairly normal and acceptable in everyday speech may become suspect when analysed.

    Some learners worry about this far more than most native speakers. Native speakers who are concerned lest they be thought to be uneducated will gradually acquire the speech habits of those who, they assume, speak 'properly', but such speakers comprise a fairly small fraction of the population these days. Many teachers say and write things that would have had my English master in despair fifty years ago, but that is one of the joys of English - it is not fixed, and we have a degree of freedom in how we express ourselves.

    Don't forget that participle phrases are not natural to most native speakers. We are taught how to use them at school, and then most of us promptly forget, and never use them again. You may get some suggestions in response to your question, but you will be trying to reach an artificial level to which most native speakers do not aspire.

    Very few native speakers would speak, or write, of an idea moving through their minds. The example in your original post is writing that very few of us would produce, and few read.

    At a more mundane level, some of us might write, "Having moved/passed/walked through the displays in the foyer, the party walked towards the stage", but very few, except a television announcer reading from a script, would say it. We would be far more likely to say something like, "After/when they had moved/etc throught the displays in the foyer, the party walked towards the stage", or even more likely, "The party moved/etc through the displays in the foyer and walked towards the stage".
    Okay, I got it. Thanks a lot! I remember reading an explanation about participle phrase saying "It was created to shorten sentences in writing", and hearing very few such expressions so far. and now you confirm it.
    As a non-native speaker and a humble tutor, I've been always worried about how to interpret and explain this to students, and it's been really bugging me. Whenever I read the translation, I felt inferior to the native speaker makers of the sentences and translators for their being correct in picking out the proper conjuction, and that process was always a torture to me. You can't have an instant decision about the conjuction as it varies on the context. You have to think about it. How can you get one out of "as, although, while, when, if, etc" right away? And sometimes two conjuctions seem possible.

    Once I devised my own way of interpreting, and it kind of worked. I made the verb-ending "Seo" in Korean translation which means- hard to explain - "and/therefore/naturally then" or something. I made my own word for any participle phrase as it seemed to be created for shortening and connecting main clause and subordinate clause. Anyway, I will try to look to study for each different case on and on.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Having moved through

    I clearly failed in what I attempted to do in my last post. We native speakers don't think about it. We don't consciously make 'instant decisions' - the words just emerge from our mouths. I am fairly sure the same is true in your culture/language, at least in informal moments.

    Until one has lived and worked in a society for a considerable time, one cannot help but be 'inferior to' native speakers. As most of us native speakers (of any language) speak without conscious preparation, we say things that baffle anyone who has learnt the language from grammar books; or from teachers who believe that if a construction is not in the book it must be wrong, or that if it is in the book it must be correct and natural.

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