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  1. #1
    keannu's Avatar
    keannu is offline Key Member
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    Default another vs the other

    I learned that "the" has the meaning of "uniqueness" in some contexts, and it fits the ex1, but in ex2, "the other" doesn't seem to mean "unique other" because of "another". It seems to mean "the only remaining other". When you hear "the", do you feel uniqueness?

    ex1)There are two dogs. One is black, and the other is brown.
    ex2)There are three dogs. One is black, another is brown, and the other is red.

  2. #2
    BobK's Avatar
    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Default Re: another vs the other

    Yes I do. Given three dogs you have isolated one - I have no idea what 'the other' is - until you dentify the second. Then the refers to something unique.

    b

  3. #3
    keannu's Avatar
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    Default Re: another vs the other

    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    Yes I do. Given three dogs you have isolated one - I have no idea what 'the other' is - until you dentify the second. Then the refers to something unique.

    b
    Thanks, You seem to have said until the others are identified, you can't tell what "the other" means, but when "the others" are identified, you can see what "the other" means.
    What about this comparison? In ex1, the other definitely means unique one thing, but in ex2, does "the others" mean "the(unique) others(multiple things)"? "Uniqueness" seems to mean only one thing, but in this case, it also describes plural things, so I doubt it may contradict its original meaning.

    ex1)There are three dogs. One is black, another is brown, and the other is red.
    ex2)There are six dogs. One is black, the others are all red.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: another vs the other

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    ex1)There are three dogs. One is black, another is brown, and the other is red.
    ex2)There are six dogs. One is black, the others are all red.
    Uniqueness isn't the issue; it's whether they have been identified or not.
    "There are six dogs: one is black, another is red, yet another is blue, and the rest are brown."
    If you want to talk about uniqueness, it is the black, the red, and the blue dogs that are unique - not "the rest" which have been referred to with "the".
    This suggests that you are misapplying the concept of uniqueness in relation to "the".
    If I said, "Bring me the blue dog", that might be an example of what you mean, because the blue dog is unique. I cannot say, "Bring me the brown dog" because there is no unique brown dog. I have to say, "Bring me a brown dog".

  5. #5
    keannu's Avatar
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    Default Re: another vs the other

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    Uniqueness isn't the issue; it's whether they have been identified or not.
    "There are six dogs: one is black, another is red, yet another is blue, and the rest are brown."
    If you want to talk about uniqueness, it is the black, the red, and the blue dogs that are unique - not "the rest" which have been referred to with "the".
    This suggests that you are misapplying the concept of uniqueness in relation to "the".
    If I said, "Bring me the blue dog", that might be an example of what you mean, because the blue dog is unique. I cannot say, "Bring me the brown dog" because there is no unique brown dog. I have to say, "Bring me a brown dog".
    The concept I raised is based on the following material. If "the" is applied to plural ones such as "Bring me the brown dogs", does it have to be an already identified ones? But the following material says it can be applied to non-identified things that are introduced for the first time. What concept do you have for "the" before plural nouns that are introduced for the first time in conversation?

    .................................................. ..............
    Rule 2: When a Noun is Unique, Use a Definite Article

    Another important rule is when something is unique* or, in other words, there is only one of that object. In this case, the definite article is used. The sun, the president, the queen of England, the capital city, and the moon are all examples. This is especially true for objects that are well known by many or most people, but it is true even when the hearer may not know the object:

    A:Who's he?
    B:He's the president of Korea. She's the CFO. He's the mayor.

    This can be contrasted with:
    A: Who's she?
    B: She's a member of parliament. She's an accountant. He's an alderman.

    This uniqueness can come by association:
    A car crashed into a tree. The driver was seriously injured.

    Once we established (introduced) the car, there could only be one driver so driver was unique at the time of introduction and we use the driver instead of a driver. We could have rewritten this so that driver was not unique (and the car was) when it was introduced:

    A driver was seriously injured when the car he was driving crashed.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: another vs the other

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    The concept I raised is based on the following material. If "the" is applied to plural ones such as "Bring me the brown dogs", does it have to be an already identified ones?
    Yes. Otherwise you would say, "Bring me some brown dogs."
    (The actual brown dogs don't have to be idenitifed yet, but the set of dogs from which the brown ones can be chosen must be identified.)

    But the following material says it can be applied to non-identified things that are introduced for the first time. What concept do you have for "the" before plural nouns that are introduced for the first time in conversation?

    .................................................. ..............
    Rule 2: When a Noun is Unique, Use a Definite Article

    But this rule is about objects or people that are known to be unique, or who can be inferred as being unique to a certain situation.
    First, we can dispense with truly unique object like the Taj Mahal and the Queen of England. You are referring to situationally unique things, such as a driver, once you've identified a car. An identified car which has crashed has a unique driver, hence "the driver". Even though the driver has not been introduced before, every car has a driver, and only one driver, and this is a specific car, so the person who was driving this car is "the driver".

    But I'm not sure how you're applying this to dogs. In the set of dogs that you have identified (these dogs here), if there only one red dog, then that dog is a unique red dog within the universe under consideration. Hence, it is "the red dog". In that sense, uniqueness does require "the". But you can't use "the" until you have defined the universe/set of dogs which is under consideration. You cannot, out of the blue, without such an identified set of dogs, say "Bring me the red dog."

  7. #7
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    Default Re: another vs the other

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    But this rule is about objects or people that are known to be unique, or who can be inferred as being unique to a certain situation.
    First, we can dispense with truly unique object like the Taj Mahal and the Queen of England. You are referring to situationally unique things, such as a driver, once you've identified a car. An identified car which has crashed has a unique driver, hence "the driver". Even though the driver has not been introduced before, every car has a driver, and only one driver, and this is a specific car, so the person who was driving this car is "the driver".

    But I'm not sure how you're applying this to dogs. In the set of dogs that you have identified (these dogs here), if there only one red dog, then that dog is a unique red dog within the universe under consideration. Hence, it is "the red dog". In that sense, uniqueness does require "the". But you can't use "the" until you have defined the universe/set of dogs which is under consideration. You cannot, out of the blue, without such an identified set of dogs, say "Bring me the red dog."
    Okay, I got it, so finally "the" here means not uniquess but the identified rest?
    I think it's referring to something both the speaker and listen can already know.
    ex)There are six dogs. One is black, the others are all red.

    Another one,
    "All the members of Yankees Baseball Team got a raise in this season"
    Is this identified uniquess or the basic,original meaning of specific "the"?

    Another one
    1)I heard every one else except Mary dropped out from Jason College due to high tuition. So Mary is the student of Jason College.(Uniqueness)
    2)Do you remember the student of Jason College I told you about before? Here comes Mary. Mary is the student of Jason College I talked about.(specific)

    Does "the" have either uniqueness or specific depending on the context like these two?
    Last edited by keannu; 07-Nov-2011 at 08:29.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: another vs the other

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    Okay, I got it, so finally "the" here means not uniquess but the identified rest?
    I think it's referring to something both the speaker and listen can already know.
    ex)There are six dogs. One is black, the others are all red.

    Another one,
    "All the members of Yankees Baseball Team got a raise in this season"
    Is this identified uniquess or the basic,original meaning of specific "the"?

    Another one
    1)I heard every one else except Mary dropped out from Jason College due to high tuition. So Mary is the student of Jason College.(Uniqueness)
    Yes, I suppose she would be "the" student. But it would be very uncommon to refer to her as such. You'd call her, "the only remaining student".
    2)Do you remember the student of Jason College I told you before? Here comes Mary. Mary is the student of Jason College.(specific)
    You wouldn't say that. It would be, "Do you remember the student of Jason College I told you about before? Here she comes. Her name is Mary. Mary is the only student left at Jason College."
    Does "the" have either uniqueness or specific depending on the context like these two?
    I don't know. I've never heard of these rules that divide things into 'specific' and 'unique'. Does the rule help you?
    I can't see any difference, so you'd have to apply your rules to whatever makes sense to you. If a dog is identified, then it's specified. If it's the only one identified and specified it's unique.
    Perhaps someone who knows how these terms are distributed over those objects which take "the" could answer that specific, unique, and identified question.
    Last edited by Raymott; 07-Nov-2011 at 08:40.

  9. #9
    waflob is offline Member
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    Default Re: another vs the other

    It really depends on your frame of reference. In the original example, once you've narrowed down the frame of reference from all dogs to the ones in question, it does make sense to use "the". Without this narrowed frame of reference, it doesn't make sense.

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