"I" or "me"?

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5jj

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Thanks! I understand that "formally flawed" here refers to "formality" level. But my question was, does this grammar define/mention a sentence as being formally flawed because it isn't acceptable in the formal style (e.g. legal)? I couldn't find this notion in the conceptual index. I'd be surprised if this descriptive grammar describes an informal construction as "flawed".
I have to admit that I have not yet read every word in The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language but, like you, I would be surprised if they used 'flawed' in this way. Actually, I don't know any grammarian who uses 'formally flawless' in the way that philo defined it.
 

birdeen's call

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Personally, I cringe when I hear/see something like 'it concerned my husband and I'. As an observer of language, I accept that many people consider it unobjectionable these days.
It makes me cringe too. And so do some hypercorrect usages I get to hear in Polish, from my fellow Poles. I do not want to look down on those people people but I do. And I think I'm not the only one.
 

TheParser

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It makes me cringe too.


NOT A TEACHER


(1) I think that some native speakers vaguely remember that their teachers taught them to say "It is I" and "You are smarter than I."

(2) Thus, they get the "feeling" that they should say things such as:

"Remember: this secret is just between you and I." (In other words, the word

"I" is considered more prestigious than the lowly "me.")
 

l10nel

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Unfortunately, we'll have no problem finding more and more instances of hypercorrection. Another example that comes to mind is saying "The problem is is that..." due to unthinking, indiscriminate application of the correct form "What the problem is is that...". As a non-native speaker, I deplore the degradation of English this way. Grammatical rules don't exist just for fun and to inflict pain; they exist to make clear communication possible.
 

birdeen's call

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Unfortunately, we'll have no problem finding more and more instances of hypercorrection. Another example that comes to mind is saying "The problem is is that..." due to unthinking, indiscriminate application of the correct form "What the problem is is that...". As a non-native speaker, I deplore the degradation of English this way. Grammatical rules don't exist just for fun and to inflict pain; they exist to make clear communication possible.
I don't think saying "between you and I" hampers communication. I don't remember having trouble understanding a person using this misconstruction. It just sounds wrong to me. But as one thread I started recently shows this means little. However, in this case, there are many other people who dislike this particular way of saying things. And I think this is why it should be avoided.
 

5jj

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Grammatical rules don't exist just for fun and to inflict pain; they exist to make clear communication possible.
I have been with you so far, but we part company here. 'Rules' are simply a record of what observers have noted to be generally the case at the time in which they were working. At various times some people have even invented rules, such as the ban on split infinitives, or the ban on ending sentences with prepositions. They have had their day, and their day has passed. In this forum we tend to say what is generally accepted today. In fitty years time, students of language may look back at our posts and laugh at how hidebound we were. Their day will also pass.
 

philo2009

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If you are basing some of your argument on such ideas as 'I don't know if you're eligible' being formally flawed, I see no point in continuing the discussion.

I don't see why. It most certainly is flawed by the lights of the definition offered!
 

philo2009

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I can't seem to find a definition or mention of the notion of "formal flaw" in this grammar.

I have nowhere suggested that they do use this term!

I have made use of it (and defined it most carefully) in this particular case in order to highlight one of a number of weak points in their reasoning process.
 

philo2009

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I have to admit that I have not yet read every word in The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language but, like you, I would be surprised if they used 'flawed' in this way. Actually, I don't know any grammarian who uses 'formally flawless' in the way that philo defined it.

You don't need to. You need only understand the word in the context of my argument in the way in which it has been defined!
 

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The examples in this discussion aren't good at illustrating why grammatical rules contribute to clear communication. One example that does is:

A loves B more than C.

A consciously assigned case to C (nominative vs accusative) helps the reader determine whether A loves B more than A loves C or A loves B more than C loves B.

If it becomes less and less important in standard English to assign a case to C, the ellipsis after "than" will be ambiguous (hence bad for communication) and we'll have to forgo it and write a longer sentence to express the same idea.
 

philo2009

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I don't think saying "between you and I" hampers communication. I don't remember having trouble understanding a person using this misconstruction. It just sounds wrong to me. But as one thread I started recently shows this means little.

You do yourself an injustice, my dear! Clearly, your instincts in this particular case are superior to those of some natives!
 

philo2009

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The examples in this discussion aren't good at illustrating why grammatical rules contribute to clear communication. One example that does is:

A loves B more than C.

A consciously assigned case to C (nominative vs accusative) helps the reader determine whether A loves B more than A loves C or A loves B more than C loves B.

If it becomes less and less important in standard English to assign a case to C, the ellipsis after "than" will be ambiguous (hence bad for communication) and we'll have to forgo it and write a longer sentence to express the same idea.

Indeed! Muddleheaded case-usage will certainly result, sooner or later, in miscommunications of this sort.

I believe, therefore, that it behoves the better educated among us at the very least not to exacerbate the problem by allowing such misconstructions as *between you and I to pass unchallenged (or indeed those "authorities" who construct utterly spurious arguments in an attempt to inveigle us into accepting them!)
 

5jj

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I believe, therefore, that it behoves the better educated among us at the very least not to exacerbate the problem by allowing such misconstructions as *between you and I to pass unchallenged (or indeed those "authorities" who construct utterly spurious arguments in an attempt to inveigle us into accepting them!)
People have been bemoaning the decline in standards in English since people such as Cheke and Mulcaster fulminated about the introduction of inkhorn tems into the language centuries ago. Conservative speakers of each generation have tried to conserve the language of the previous generation, though, for some strange reason, not the the language of the previous century.

In my lifetime, I have seen several constructions pass from completely unacceptable in British English to widely used and accepted. These include: the split infinitive, the shall/will distinction, 'accusative' who, prepositions at the end of sentences and "It is me". "Between you and I'" will probably join this list, whether we like it or not.

Discussion about whether such forms should be considered acceptable or not is often fruitless, because some of them will become acceptable whatever anyone says; some will not. We rarely know until after the acceptability has become established.

The mere labelling of arguments as 'utterly spurious' does not prove them to be so.
 

5jj

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birdeen's call

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You do yourself an injustice, my dear! Clearly, your instincts in this particular case are superior to those of some natives!
It is, but in no absolute sense, darling. It makes me not sound wrong to some other natives. That's all good I get from it. My usage in this particular case doesn't make me more comprehensible.
 

philo2009

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The mere labelling of arguments as 'utterly spurious' does not prove them to be so.

Of course it does not. Whoever said otherwise?

The proofs, however, concerning the spuriousness of one particular bit of sophistry on the part of Messrs. Pullum et al. are to be found clearly laid out in post #16.

If you have any specific rebuttals to make to any of the points contained therein, I suggest that you make them in a clear and systematic fashion rather than slinging mud from the sidelines!
 

philo2009

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Some moderately well educated people do not agree that we should be prescriptivist in our approach to language. These include Rodney Huddleston, (Manchester Grammar School, Cambridge Scholarship, first-class honours degree, PhD supervised by Michael Halliday) and Geoffrey Pullum, (first class honours degree, University College, London PhD).
Their The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language won the 2004 Leonard Bloomfield Book Award of the Linguistic Society of America.

Oh, how impressive! The Leonard Bloomfield award! Hold me, in case I faint!!!

Well, as they're such jolly well-educated chaps, obviously all of the holes I picked in their miserable excuse for an argument in favour of *between you and I and its ilk must be wrong, since they are clearly perfect beings who can do no wrong.

Thank you so much for pointing out to me the error of my ways, and, in particular, for helping me to understand the principle that if someone has published a book, EVERYTHING in it must be right!!

I'll never question anything I see in print again!!!
 

philo2009

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My usage in this particular case doesn't make me more comprehensible.

No, but it does make you more CORRECT; so you can derive some comfort, however slim, from that!
 
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philo2009

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"Between you and I'" will probably join this list, whether we like it or not.

Not if I have anything to do with it, it won't!
(What an appallingly defeatist attitude!! )
 
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