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  1. #11
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    Default Re: turned up to

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    The book you are quoting from does not give the whole picture.[/LIST]
    Please don't think I'm a crazy guy, I just want to know a third concept related to this conditional. You and other teachers mentioned roughly two categories like this.
    1. counterfactual present - opposite of the present fact depending on speakers' attitude.
    2. Hypothetical future- unlikley future (a very low possibility unlikely to happen in the future) depending on speakers' attitude

    These two are what I heard, but I couldn't tell counterfactual present and hypothetical general time(Mickey Mouse case with a bunch of other cases) So may I assume hypothetical general time belongs not to counterfactual present but to hypothetical future so that the two should be combined to (general hypothetical= general time+future) ? It was an orphan concept in my brain.
    Last edited by keannu; 05-Dec-2011 at 23:28.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: turned up to

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    So may I assume hypothetical general time belongs not to counterfactual present but to hypothetical future so that the two should be combined to (general hypothetical= general time+future) ? .
    I don't understand what you mean by 'belongs to'. The present does not belong to the future.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: turned up to

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by 'belongs to'. The present does not belong to the future.
    Then is it a third category? As counterfactual is different from hypothetical as I guess.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: turned up to

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    Then is it a third category? As counterfactual is different from hypothetical as I guess.
    I am possibly being rather dense today, but i simply cannot understand the question.

    Let's go back a step or two. Are any of the examples I gave to you in post #6 unclear to you? if so, please try to select one thing that causes a problem, and say what it is that troubles you.

    If not, well, we'll have some basis to work on.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: turned up to

    Explaining the Mickey Mouse case, You said it's a hypothetical situation(possible but unlikely) that is related to general time, but you divided two caterories of future hypothetical situation and counterfactual hypothesis.
    So which does this hypothetical situation of Mick Mouse case of general time belong to?

    You are trying to read far too much into this. The writer is simply presenting the possibility of the colleague turning up as Mickey mouse as a hypothetical situation. The form used suggests that the writer is aware that the realisation of the situation is possible, but unlikely. For example, if one of your colleagues turned up to a serious business meeting dressed as Mickey Mouse, its likely youd remember the funny incident a month later ...

    ex)If I got up at six tomorrow, I'd be able to catch the Berlin train.
    The writer is presenting a hypothetical situation. Without further context, we do not know if there is any real likelihood of his getting up at six or not.

    If I were in Berlin now, I'd be going out for a currywurst.
    This is a counterfactual hypothesis. The speaker is not in Berlin.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: turned up to

    My question is simple.
    There are two kinds of second conditionals.
    1.counterfactual present
    2.hypothetical future
    Is hypothetical timeless (like Mickey Mouse or numerous imaginary cases) an exceptional one or does it belong to 1?

  7. #17
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    Default Re: turned up to

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    My question is simple.
    There are two kinds of second conditionals.
    1.counterfactual present
    2.hypothetical future
    Is hypothetical timeless (like Mickey Mouse or numerous imaginary cases) an exceptional one or does it belong to 1?
    If you have to have classes or kinds, why don't you settle on:

    There are three kinds of second conditionals:

    1. hypothetical present
    (counterfactual)
    2. hypothetical timeless (counterfactual)
    3.hypothetical future

    ?

  8. #18
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    Default Re: turned up to

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    If you have to have classes or kinds, why don't you settle on:

    There are three kinds of second conditionals:

    1. hypothetical present (counterfactual)
    2. hypothetical timeless (counterfactual)
    3.hypothetical future

    ?
    Maybe I have a wrong notion, I have thought "hypothetical = unlikely =low(remote)possibility" , while counterfactual = zero possibility of the fact = opposite of the fact(depending on speakers' attitude).
    Is hypothetical different from counterfactual or are the two same?
    I thought Mickey Mouse case has low possibility as you said, so it's hypothetical, and at the same time I felt it can't be counterfactual, that's why I got confused.
    I think it's the problem of notion or concept, not classification for me.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: turned up to

    "hypothetical - 1.of or based on or serving as a hypothesis. 2. supposed but nor necessarily real or true.
    hypothesis - 1. a proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without the assumption of its truth."

    Concise Oxford Dictionary.


    If I hypothesise about future situations, then there is a chance, however remote, that they may materialise. If I hypothesise about present situations which do not exist, or about past situations which did nor exist, then they are counterfactual.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: turned up to

    Thank you so much, now I understand quite well.
    and this will be last question, I won't ask you about this any more as this long-marathon will make you tired, I feel guilty.
    I wonder why you said "Mickey mouse" case is possible but unlikely when it's timeless counterfactual, so the two contrasting concepts of unlikeliness and counterfactulity seemed to be there. I'm sorry!!

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