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Thread: who or whom?

  1. RonBee's Avatar
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    #11

    Re: who or whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by jwschang
    Quote Originally Posted by RonBee
    I might have to go back on some of my own advice, because not in a hundred years would I use whom in that sentence. I am not going to argue that whom is dead, but even tho it might go agains the "rule" who is more natural there. "Says who?" you say? Says me. :wink:
    A contribution from me.

    1. WHO
    (a) Used as subject of a verb.
    I don't know who has the tickets.
    (b) Can also be object of verb BE (only).
    I know who she is.
    We didn't mind who they were next to us.
    (c) In spoken conversation (only), may be used as object of a preposition if it does not follow after the preposition.
    Whom did you bring along?, or: Who did you bring along?
    Whom did you speak to?, or: Who did you speak to?
    To whom did you speak?, BUT NOT: To who did you speak?
    I agree with most of that, especially in (a) and (b). However, I have to disagree with (c) if only because I would never use whom in that way. I wouldn't use any of those sentences in which whom appears either in speech or writing. I think perhaps this is a case in which the rule hasn't caught up to usage yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by jwschang
    2. WHOM
    (a) Used as object of verb.
    Is he the teacher whom you met?
    They are the students whom we saw.
    (b) Used as object of preposition.
    To whom did you give a five?
    This is the kid to whom I gave a five.
    (c) CANNOT be used as subject of a verb.
    He helped the lady who (he saw) had lost her wallet.
    BUT NOT: He helped the lady whom (he saw) had lost her wallet.
    The mistake here tends to be made because of the parenthetic "he saw". Preceding the nominative case "he", students use the objective case "whom" which is incorrect.
    I agree, of course, that you shouldn't use whom as a subject, but I would be unlikely to use to use whom in any of those ways in which it is suggested it should be used. For example, I would say "Who did you give a five to?" and not "To whom did you give a five?" In the other example sentences I wouldn't feel the necessity of using either who or whom.

    :)

  2. RonBee's Avatar
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    #12

    Re: who or whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by jwschang
    Quote Originally Posted by RonBee
    I might have to go back on some of my own advice, because not in a hundred years would I use whom in that sentence. I am not going to argue that whom is dead, but even tho it might go agains the "rule" who is more natural there. "Says who?" you say? Says me. :wink:
    I'm more used to saying:
    Says who? Says I, says he, says she, says they. But also "Says me".
    It's like: You and I are going somewhere, but commonly used (and easier on the tongue) is You and me are going somewhere. :wink:
    Well, says me is certainly more idiomatic in my neck of the woods. :wink:

    On the other hand, you and I might go somewhere, but you and me isn't going anywhere.

    :wink:

  3. jwschang
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    #13

    Re: who or whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by RonBee
    On the other hand, you and I might go somewhere, but you and me isn't going anywhere.
    :wink:
    You're absolutely right. The "me" is for the negative. :wink:

  4. jwschang
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    #14

    Re: who or whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by RonBee
    Quote Originally Posted by jwschang
    Quote Originally Posted by RonBee
    I might have to go back on some of my own advice, because not in a hundred years would I use whom in that sentence. I am not going to argue that whom is dead, but even tho it might go agains the "rule" who is more natural there. "Says who?" you say? Says me. :wink:
    A contribution from me.

    1. WHO
    (a) Used as subject of a verb.
    I don't know who has the tickets.
    (b) Can also be object of verb BE (only).
    I know who she is.
    We didn't mind who they were next to us.
    (c) In spoken conversation (only), may be used as object of a preposition if it does not follow after the preposition.
    Whom did you bring along?, or: Who did you bring along?
    Whom did you speak to?, or: Who did you speak to?
    To whom did you speak?, BUT NOT: To who did you speak?
    I agree with most of that, especially in (a) and (b). However, I have to disagree with (c) if only because I would never use whom in that way. I wouldn't use any of those sentences in which whom appears either in speech or writing. I think perhaps this is a case in which the rule hasn't caught up to usage yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by jwschang
    2. WHOM
    (a) Used as object of verb.
    Is he the teacher whom you met?
    They are the students whom we saw.
    (b) Used as object of preposition.
    To whom did you give a five?
    This is the kid to whom I gave a five.
    (c) CANNOT be used as subject of a verb.
    He helped the lady who (he saw) had lost her wallet.
    BUT NOT: He helped the lady whom (he saw) had lost her wallet.
    The mistake here tends to be made because of the parenthetic "he saw". Preceding the nominative case "he", students use the objective case "whom" which is incorrect.
    I agree, of course, that you shouldn't use whom as a subject, but I would be unlikely to use to use whom in any of those ways in which it is suggested it should be used. For example, I would say "Who did you give a five to?" and not "To whom did you give a five?" In the other example sentences I wouldn't feel the necessity of using either who or whom.
    :)
    Formal and in writing, WHOM is supposed to be used that way, according to the grammatical rule on the objective case. :wink:

  5. RonBee's Avatar
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    #15

    Re: who or whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by jwschang
    Quote Originally Posted by RonBee
    On the other hand, you and I might go somewhere, but you and me isn't going anywhere.
    :wink:
    You're absolutely right. The "me" is for the negative. :wink:
    I meant that I would only use I as a subject and not me. For example, I would say, "You and I agree" but never would I say, "You and me agree."

    :)

  6. jwschang
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    #16

    Re: who or whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by RonBee
    I meant that I would only use I as a subject and not me. For example, I would say, "You and I agree" but never would I say, "You and me agree."
    :)
    Ah, you didn't agree with "me". You're right of course, grammar-wise, but I had thought it was one of those accepted usages in AE and BE. It's commonly used here (Singapore, etc) by people aware of it grammatical misfit. :wink:

  7. RonBee's Avatar
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    #17
    People use it, but it isn't exactly considered an acceptable usage.

    :wink:

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