Re: can you use future perfect to refer to a past event?
Raymott: Ihave no doubt. Because your students got it consistently from someone who had these ideas arranged according to a consistent system. Your system seems to actually require English to have two only tenses,
5jj: It requires this because most serious writers on English grammar present this as the situation in English.
R: and would perhaps be beyond the majority of English teachers, let alone learners, especially if they are presented elsewhere with a plethora of tenses.
The ignorance of many teachers of English about the facts of English grammar has always been a wonder to me. I accept it with those teachers who believe that language should be learnt communicatively, without any use of grammar rules/explanations, but if teachers are going to teach grammar, then they should do it correctly, in my opinion,
R: You'd need to have some guarantee of continuity with your students for it to work.
5jj:If a learner has been taught incorrectly, I feel under no obligation to continue with this for the sake of continuity.
R: Do you know of a current commonly-used grammar book for ESL learners that presents tense that way?
5. Unfortunately, I don't. The writers of these books seem to be be ignoring the thoughts of:
Aitken, Rosemary (1992) Teaching Tenses, Walton-on-Thames, Thomas Nelson
Biber, Douglas; Johansson, Stig; Leech, Geoffrey; Conrad, Susan and Finegan, Edward (1999) Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English, Harlow: Longman
Carter, Ronald & McCarthy, Michael (2006) Cambridge Grammar of English, Cambridge: CUP
Chalker, Sylvia (1984) Current English Grammar, London: Macmillan
Chalker, Sylvia and Weiner, Edmund(1993) The Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar, 2nd edn, Oxford: OUP
Christophersen, Paul & Sandved Arthur O. (1969) An Advanced English Grammar, Basingstoke: Macmillan
Huddleston, Rodney & Pullum, Geoffrey K (2002) The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, Cambridge: CUP
Lewis, Michael (1985) The English Verb, Hove: LTP
Palmer, Frank R and Greenbaum, Sidney in McArthur, Tom (1992) The Oxford Companion to the English Language, Oxford: OUP.
Quirk, Randolph, Greenbaum, Sidney, Leech, Geoffrey and Svartik, Jan (1985) A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, London: Longman
Yule, George (1998) Explaining English Grammar, Oxford: OUP.
But, "people find it extremely difficult to drop the notion of 'future tense' [...] from their mental vocabulary, and to look for other ways of talking about the grammatical realities of the Enlish verb".
Crystal, David (2003.196)The Cambridge Encyclopaedia of the English Language (2nd edn) , Cambridge: CUP
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