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    #1

    Post Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    Hi teachers and friends,

    I'm confuse how to differentiate Intransitive + preposition and Transitive + particle in phrasal verb.

    Intransitive + preposition: The words someone and something indicate the position and nature of the object of the preposition.
    For example: count on someone

    Transitive + particle: A verb combines with an adverbial particle. There is always a direct object. The position of direct object varies, it must stands before the particle but sometime it stands after the particle like Intransitive + preposition form.
    For example: Give up something

    Please give me explanations

    Thanks in advance...

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    #2

    Re: Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    How is count on someone intransitive?

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    #3

    Re: Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    How is count on someone intransitive?
    Someone was counted on to help me.
    It was him we counted on.
    It was on him we counted.


    We [count on] you.
    We [want] you.

    In count on, count and on are one in terms of syntax. What comes after on is the object of the idiomatic verb-particle combination.

    A verb combines with an adverbial particle. There is always a direct object


    I looked up and saw a bird.

    Please give me explanations
    Long story, and a difficult one at that.

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    #4

    Re: Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    In count on, count and on are one in terms of syntax. What comes after on is the object of the idiomatic verb-particle combination.
    And doesn't this make it transitive?

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    #5

    Re: Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    Transitive + particle

    [I rang my brother up] this form can be change like this [I rang up my brother] has the same meaning.

    Intransitive + preposition

    [I count on you] cannot be change [I count you on]

    Am I right? that is the different.
    So I have to change the form to know is it Transitive + particle or Intransitive + preposition. If it has the same meaning it means Transitive + particle.

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    #6

    Re: Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    [QUOTE=jebonfikri;841577] friends,

    A verb combines with an adverbial particle. There is always a direct object. The position of direct object varies, it must stands before the particle but sometime it stands after the particle like Intransitive + preposition form.

    NOT A TEACHER


    (1) Of course, your question is too difficult for me to answer.

    (2) But I thought that you would enjoy reading this sentence that I read last night:

    "Later the manager passes, who points me out the exact spot where ...."

    (a) The writer is a prominent British author.

    (b) I believe that Americans would not accept his separation of the phrasal verb

    "point out." When I saw that sentence, my reading came to a sudden halt.

    (i) I believe that Americans would require:

    "Later the manager passes, who points out to me the exact spot where ...."/

    who points out the exact spot to me where ...."

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    #7

    Re: Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    "Later the manager passes, who points out to me the exact spot where ...."/

    I think points out to the pattern is Intransitive + particle + preposition because me is the direct object of to [preposition]. This pattern obviously I can understand.

    I'm still not clear about how to differentiate between adverbial particles and preposition in phrasal verbs form. I think if I know the difference between adverbial particles and preposition in phrasal verbs form, I can determine Intransitive + preposition and Transitive + particle pattern.

    Please....
    Give me explanations about this...
    Thanks in advance..

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    #8

    Re: Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    Quote Originally Posted by jebonfikri View Post
    Am I right? that is the different.
    This isn't right- some transitive verbs are separable and others aren't. I count on you is transitive but inseparable. Where there is an object, the verb is transitive, and this is not affected by the position. An intransitive phrasal verb has no object- We had an argument but have made up.

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    #9

    Re: Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    I do agree with you about some transitive verbs are separable and others aren't. From the book I read count on you is Intransitive + particle because the words introduce pronoun.

    I do agree with you about An intransitive phrasal verb has no object, but from the book I read, it give me example; Do Tom and the new man get on? this pattern is Intransitive + particle because they do not introduce a noun phrase or pronoun. I think your example We had an argument but have made up has the same pattern.

    The book says Transitive + particle perhaps the most difficult group to use because the direct object is not always in the same position.

    I post this thread maybe we can find the easy way to determine between Intransitive + preposition and Transitive + particle.

    I feel my head is spinning right now..

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    #10

    Re: Intransitive + preposition Vs Transitive + particle

    Quote Originally Posted by jebonfikri View Post
    Hi teachers and friends,

    I'm confuse how to differentiate Intransitive + preposition and Transitive + particle in phrasal verb.

    Intransitive + preposition: The words someone and something indicate the position and nature of the object of the preposition.
    For example: count on someone

    Transitive + particle: A verb combines with an adverbial particle. There is always a direct object. The position of direct object varies, it must stands before the particle but sometime it stands after the particle like Intransitive + preposition form.
    For example: Give up something

    Please give me explanations

    Thanks in advance...
    I'm afraid that only a good learners' dictionary will be of help to you here, since there is nothing inherent in the wording of most verb and 'particle' sequences to indicate definitively whether they are phrasal combinations at all, or, if they are, of which type (adverbial transitive, adverbial intransitive or prepositional).

    However, you will find that certain particles are only ever prepositions, not adverbs, most notably 'at' (e.g. 'look at'), 'for' (e.g. 'look for') and 'with' (e.g. 'reckon with').

    (I am assuming you are already familiar with the well-known test for adverbial vs. prepositional phrasals concerning the position of object pronouns...)

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