[General] gender of English nouns

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JarekSteliga

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I have learnt that English nouns are basicly genderless. However I often encounter some objects reffered to as 'he' or 'she'. I could not find a list of objects commonly endowed with a gender. I know just a few items of any such list: the Moon (she), the Sun (she), a ship/boat (she). Would anyone care to draw up a list of inanimate nouns commonly referred to as 'he' or 'she'?
The intriguing thing here is that two nouns out of the three I mentioned above have the opposite gender in my language (the Sun being referred to as 'it')
 

emsr2d2

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I believe that the moon is referred to as "she" because in so many religions there is a goddess (not a god) associated with the moon. I'm not so sure about the sun. I don't think I regularly hear the sun referred to as "she". If anything, if I had to associate one or the other, I would say there are more Sun gods than goddesses.

I have no idea why people refer to boats and cars as "she" although with cars it's sometimes the case that men prefer their car to their wife! ;-)
 

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I wouldn't agree that the sun and moon are called "she" (outside of poetry, maybe).

Cars, boats, etc. can be, but usually by those responsible for operating them.
 

konungursvia

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English nouns don't actually have gender. Gender as a grammatical feature is different to gender as an expression of biological sex, though their origins are intertwined.

First, we have to distinguish between an object (say, a real bicycle) and the word used to denote it.

In the cultures of the English-speaking peoples, there is a tradition to refer to some objects with personification, including gender, such as ships and some countries. The feminine pronoun is even used.

But the words themselves (ship, country, Russia, Germany, etc.) don't have gender in English.

A further counter-example: even in a gender-based language such as French, it is the words, not the actual objects, which have gender, a purely grammatical convention, e.g. bicycle: un vélocipède / un 'vélo' (m), une bicyclette (f).

So we see that the same object can be referred to by words which themselves are masculine or feminine; in most cases, the object has none (the exception being people and animals).
 

JarekSteliga

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Come to think of it, I indeed must have heard the nouns referred to as male of female in poetry and interpolated this phenomenon into everyday use of the language. From the study of the above posts I realize that gender application to nouns is indeed marginal and mostly met with when a given object is dear to their owner's / operator's heart (in some extreme cases dearer than their own ...wife :roll:).

Konungursvia mentioned that some countries are personified as male/female. Can I ask which? I do not suppose Poland is among them :cry:?
 

konungursvia

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Come to think of it, I indeed must have heard the nouns referred to as male of female in poetry and interpolated this phenomenon into everyday use of the language. From the study of the above posts I realize that gender application to nouns is indeed marginal and mostly met with when a given object is dear to their owner's / operator's heart (in some extreme cases dearer than their own ...wife :roll:).

Konungursvia mentioned that some countries are personified as male/female. Can I ask which? I do not suppose Poland is among them :cry:?

It's a she: The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

Edit: I suppose most or even all countries are "she" in English when romantically personified, i.e. a motherland, a nation, a vehicle of sorts (a Leviathan). Even Der Vaterland.
 

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Mr. Steliga,


When you have time, you may wish to google: "She" is no longer a ship.

In 2002, the Daily Telegraph of London had a most interesting article on this matter.
 

JarekSteliga

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It's a she: The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

Edit: I suppose most or even all countries are "she" in English when romantically personified, i.e. a motherland, a nation, a vehicle of sorts (a Leviathan). Even Der Vaterland.

The article in The Montreal Gazette simply took my breath away (and for more reasons than are relevant to our current topic). I cannot thank you enough for bringing it up.

May I now tentatively take my earlier observations a step further and assert that this personification of nouns realized through referring to them as "she" is a figure of speech of sorts or a peculiar term of endearment used to express tender feelings towards objects not just by their owners / operators but also in broader contexts.

If this were the case, I suppose it would be in order for me to say for example: how can I thank this FORUM for HER existence?
 

emsr2d2

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The article in The Montreal Gazette simply took my breath away (and for more reasons than are relevant to our current topic). I cannot thank you enough for bringing it up.

May I now tentatively take my earlier observations a step further and assert that this personification of nouns realized through referring to them as "she" is a figure of speech of sorts or a peculiar term of endearment used to express tender feelings towards objects not just by their owners / operators but also in broader contexts.

If this were the case, I suppose it would be in order for me to say for example: how can I thank this FORUM for HER existence?

You're right that it's a figure of speech but I don't think that you can just choose to refer to something as "she/her" just because you feel good feelings towards it. Reference to things in such a way has happened over a long period and are not even noticed by native speakers much of the time. If you wrote "How can I thank this forum for her existence?" most native speakers would see that as a basic error and would think that you believed that English nouns do actually have gender.

In addition, you can't thank a forum. You can thank the members.
 

JarekSteliga

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Mr. Steliga,


When you have time, you may wish to google: "She" is no longer a ship.

In 2002, the Daily Telegraph of London had a most interesting article on this matter.


Thank you. I googled and read it as suggested.

I was very hesitant prior to opening this thread but am now nothing but pleased for having done so as the matter of English nound gender is clearly in some situations felt strongly about and of interest not just to the learners of the language.
 

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this personification of nouns realized through referring to them as "she" is a figure of speech of sorts or a peculiar term of endearment used to express tender feelings towards objects

If you've ever worked on a cantankerous old car, you might see that the feelings do not always have to be "tender" in order to speak of her that way.
 

BobSmith

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I was very hesitant prior to opening this thread but am now nothing but pleased for having done so

Even though, as a native speaker, I already "know" the rules around gender in English, I very much like reading about how non-native speakers understand and implement them. It helps to put in context how English is different than other languages. Also, it gives me the chance to review and reinforce what I already know, in a helpful and friendly atmosphere.
 

BobSmith

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I have learnt that English nouns are basicly genderless.

[nat]

Come to think of it, there are English words that have gender, but of course they have etymologies that support genders. Fiance (male) vs. fiancee (female) comes to mindI never put in accents. But, this seems more like gender pronouns (“he”, “she”) to me, because it's not an arbitrary distinction; the masculine form is used to describe a man, while the feminine form a woman.
 

emsr2d2

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[nat]

Come to think of it, there are English words that have gender, but of course they have etymologies that support genders. Fiance (male) vs. fiancee (female) comes to mindI never put in accents. But, this seems more like gender pronouns (“he”, “she”) to me, because it's not an arbitrary distinction; the masculine form is used to describe a man, while the feminine form a woman.

As you say, there are specific words which can denote the gender of the person they're applied to, but that doesn't make the noun attached to that person masculine or feminine.

fiancé/fiancée (for info, I always put the accent on the é)
blond/blonde

As you said though, they have etymologies which are gender-based. Both the examples above are from French.
 

JarekSteliga

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If you've ever worked on a cantankerous old car, you might see that the feelings do not always have to be "tender" in order to speak of her that way.


I suppose learners of a foreign language are always after some rule or another knowing full well that in the absence of any they face the formidable task of having to learn every single instance by heart.

So let me have another shot at it and broaden the definition of situations in which an inanimate noun might be referred to as "he" or "she". Perhaps an ordinary inanimate noun is likely to be tinted with a feminine gender when it is strongly felt about (be the feeling good or bad). Also if I am not mistaken cyclones are given female names.

If this my last attempt at putting a finger on it misfires I will chose to steer clear of the 'unchartered waters' in my (limited anyway) use of English.
 

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Yes, your new statement is better. I would still caution any learner to avoid using such gender references. It can easily sound like you are not aware that English doesn't normally work that way.

And hurricanes (as cyclones are known in the Atlantic) are now named with alternating male and female names. They used to be all named for girls, but now we have to be politically correct.
 

JarekSteliga

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1. Reference to things in such a way has happened over a long period and are not even noticed by native speakers much of the time.

2. If you wrote "How can I thank this forum for her existence?" most native speakers would see that as a basic error and would think that you believed that English nouns do actually have gender.

3. In addition, you can't thank a forum. You can thank the members.


1. From this particular remark one can conclude that 'reference to things in such a way' is based purely on native speaker's instinct and therefore the 'when' rule is quite impossible of definition.

2. Point taken.

3. It is my pleasure to thank the members of this FORUM for its existence.
 

BobSmith

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learners ... are always after some rule

rule: ships and cars. You'll be much better leaving it at that.

an ordinary inanimate noun is likely to be tinted with a feminine gender when it is strongly felt about

Personally, I would discourage this thinking. You'll never be wrong using "it". E.g. "The Enterprise is a large ship. It is also fast." - sounds perfectly fine. "My cottage in the woods is very important to me. She's been in my family for years." - will sound very odd to a native speaker.

Not a teacher.
 
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