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  1. #11
    yangmuye is offline Newbie
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    Re: The problem with pronunciation.Pleased help

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    I don't understand the point you are making. One may consider /v/ to be either the final sound of the first syllable, or the initial sound of the second, but it's only one sound - it can't be both.
    Okay. I should have written (1fai(2v1)ə2)c, the notation used by someone to mark ambisyllabic.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    I don't agree that, at the end of an utterance, " Five may sound like 'fīv-fə. The ə in fə is voiceless, but audible" .
    Just take a listen to the audios in your #4. They are clearly /faivf/, with a long voiceless /f/.
    The “voiceless ə-like sound” I said sounds like /h/. You can hear it clearly in words ending with /p/ /t/ /k/.

  2. #12
    5jj's Avatar
    5jj is offline VIP Member
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    Re: The problem with pronunciation.Pleased help

    Quote Originally Posted by yangmuye View Post
    Just take a listen to the audios in your #4. They are clearly /faivf/, with a long voiceless /f/.
    The AmE pronunciation does sound like that (though there is no following /ə/); the BrE version does not.
    After listening to that, I thought that this might be a feature of AmE. However, I listened to the BrE and AmE pronunciations of thrive, jive, alive, drive and hive; I noticed it only in the BrE versions of jive and hive and tth AmE version of drive. It seems to depend on the individual speaker.

    Where this devoicng occurs, it will be noted in a narrow phonetic transcription of an individual's speech, but is not appropriate in in phonemic transcription (between two slashes, /.../).

    The “voiceless ə-like sound” I said sounds like /h/. You can hear it clearly in words ending with /p/ /t/ /k/.
    This post-release feature of stops is generally known as aspiration. It is not associated with fricatives such as /f/ and /v/
    Last edited by 5jj; 06-May-2012 at 15:10.

  3. #13
    anhnha's Avatar
    anhnha is offline Member
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    Re: The problem with pronunciation.Pleased help

    Thank all of you.
    I am a bit confused with this:
    The ə in fə is voiceless, but audible
    Could you give a more detailed explaination about this?

  4. #14
    BobK's Avatar
    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Re: The problem with pronunciation.Pleased help

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    I don't understand the point you are making. One may consider /v/ to be either the final sound of the first syllable, or the initial sound of the second, but it's only one sound - it can't be both.

    I don't agree that, at the end of an utterance, " Five may sound like 'fīv-fə. The ə in fə is voiceless, but audible" .
    - particularl;y the last point. What does the vowel phoneme symbol /ǝ/ represent if not an audible vowel sound? And anyone who pronounces 'five' with a vowel sound after the /v/ needs to work on their English accent!

    b

  5. #15
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    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Re: The problem with pronunciation.Pleased help

    Incidentally, anhnha, you have 'a problem with pronunciation' . You would only use 'the' if you were making a general point - for example 'The problem with pronuciation is that it's hard to discuss sensibly unless everyone is using an agreed transcription system.'

    And I expect the 'pleased' in the subject was just a typo.

    b

  6. #16
    5jj's Avatar
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    Re: The problem with pronunciation.Pleased help

    Quote Originally Posted by anhnha View Post
    Thank all of you.
    I am a bit confused with this: "The ə in fə is voiceless, but audible"




    Could you give a more detailed explaination about this?
    I am not surprised that you are confused. See Bob's post #14.

    The word 'five' does not, ever, end in the sounds /fə/.

  7. #17
    yangmuye is offline Newbie
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    Re: The problem with pronunciation.Pleased help

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    The AmE pronunciation does sound like that (though there is no following /ə/); the BrE version does not.
    After listening to that, I thought that this might be a feature of AmE. However, I listened to the BrE and AmE pronunciations of thrive, jive, alive, drive and hive; I noticed it only in the BrE versions of jive and hive and tth AmE version of drive. It seems to depend on the individual speaker.
    I wrote “they”, which means both the AmE and the BrE records sound like /laivf/, which are obviously devoiced as in many other words.
    Even the same speaker may switch them freely.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    This post-release feature of stops is generally known as aspiration. It is not associated with fricatives such as /f/ and /v/
    Some of them do not sound (to me) released while some do.
    It's reasonable that fricatives are clear enough even without audible release.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    Where this devoicng occurs, it will be noted in a narrow phonetic transcription of an individual's speech, but is not appropriate in in phonemic transcription (between two slashes, /.../).
    I didn't even tried to use IPA, except ə, because anhnha had used it.
    So the ə in my previous posts refers to the ə-like sound that anhnha heard. It may be easier for him to understand.
    I didn't quote them with “/ /” or “[ ]”
    And I have never said something like “the ə is a second syllable” or “live” may be pronounced as “fivuh/fiver” with two syllable.
    I said,
    Quote Originally Posted by yangmuye
    Five = fīv. When the t is audibly released, it sounds like there is an very short ə, that is, 'fīv-və.
    It seems to me that, voiced consonants tend to be partially devoiced(/voicelessly released) at final positions. Five may sound like 'fīv-fə. The ə in fə is voiceless, but audible.
    If you think it's too misleading, let me state it again clearly:
    It is not the /ə/ as in “about”, it is the release of consonant.

    I'm not going to continue the argument any more.
    You are absolutely right that there is no extra syllable and no one is against you.
    The questions is, why would anhnha feel like that. Where does the mysterious ə(anhnha heard) come from.

    Quote Originally Posted by anhnha
    The ə in fə is voiceless, but audibleCould you give a more detailed explaination about this?
    For example, /h/ is voiceless, but we can hear it, so it's audible.
    An isolated /p/ is voiceless, and must be released to be audible, so it sounds like /pə//tə//kə/(the ə is extremely short and voiceless) or /ph//th//kh/.
    If you feel you heard a /və/ in words like “five”, “live”, etc, it's audible.
    If you feel you heard whispering /pə//tə//kə/ or /ph//th//kh/ in words like “it”, “sick”, “jump”, etc, they are voiceless, but audible.
    If you feel what you heard has an extra syllable, the final consonant is released and audible.

  8. #18
    5jj's Avatar
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    Re: The problem with pronunciation.Pleased help

    Quote Originally Posted by yangmuye View Post
    I wrote “they”, which means both the AmE and the BrE records sound like /laivf/, which are obviously devoiced as in many other words.
    The BrE recording is not obviously devoiced.

    Neither of them sounds like /faivf/. This is simply not an acceptable phonemic transcription. /vf/ is the succession of sounds you hear in '"I've found". If you wish to indicate that the /v/ sound becomes devoiced before it is completed, then you will need to write a narrow phonetic transcription.
    I didn't even tried try to use IPA, except ə, because anhnha had used it.
    So the ə in my previous posts refers to the ə-like sound that anhnha heard. It may be easier for him to understand.
    It may also be confusing if you use IPA symbols to mean something different from what they normally signify.
    And I have never said something like “the ə is a second syllable” or “live” may be pronounced as “fivuh/fiver” with two syllable.
    I said,
    Five may sound like 'fīv-fə. The ə in fə is voiceless, but audible.
    Whether you intend this or not, ''fiv-fə" appears to denote a word of two syllables, the first of which is stressed, and the second of which contains a schwa vowel.
    If you think it's too misleading, let me state it again clearly:
    It is not the /ə/ as in “about”, it is the release of consonant.
    Then please do not use the schwa symbol. It can only confuse.
    For example, /h/ is voiceless, but we can hear it, so it's audible.
    An isolated /p/ is voiceless, and must be released to be audible, so it sounds like /pə//tə//kə/(the ə is extremely short and voiceless)
    NO. If you wish to utter an isolated /p/, you can follow it with any vowel you wish.
    or /ph//th//kh/.
    These are the sounds heard in 'haphazard', 'hothead' and 'blockhead'. If you are referring to aspirated stops, then you need to transcribe them phonetically, with a superscript 'h' following the symbol.
    If you feel you heard a /və/ in words like “five”, “live”, etc, it's audible.
    If you feel you heard whispering /pə//tə//kə/ or /ph//th//kh/ in words like “it”, “sick”, “jump”, etc, they are voiceless, but audible.
    If you feel what you heard has an extra syllable, the final consonant is released and audible.
    If you have heard a final /ə/in the words 'five', 'live', 'it', 'sick' and 'jump, then you have heard somebody mispronouncing them.

    Part of the problem here is that you are using the symbols somewhat idiosyncratically. If you wish to discuss sounds, you must be consistent, and make it clear whether you are transcribing phonemically or phonetically. In either case, in the natural BrE and AmE pronunciations of the words you have mentioned, there is no final schwa sound.

  9. #19
    BobK's Avatar
    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Re: The problem with pronunciation.Pleased help

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    ...These are the sounds heard in 'haphazard', 'hothead' and 'blockhead'.
    ...
    Good choices.

    ...
    If you feel you heard a /və/ in words like “five”, “live”, etc, it's audible.
    If you feel you heard whispering /pə//tə//kə/ or /ph//th//kh/ in words like “it”, “sick”, “jump”, etc, they are voiceless, but audible.
    If you feel what you heard has an extra syllable, the final consonant is released and audible. ...
    We obviously need a new word; 'psychaudible', perhaps.

    b

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