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    #11

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    Batty as in more accustomed to hearing high-pitched chirping than to hearing well-spoken language. Silly latinists.

  1. CarloSsS's Avatar
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    #12

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    I've encountered the rule countless times. In grammar books, in school, on the Internet, in Michael Swan's Practical English Usage etc. Note though, that overwhelming majority of the materials I found this rule in refers exclusively to BrE.
    Please note that I'm not a teacher.

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    #13

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    Quote Originally Posted by William Jones View Post
    And Fowler states in his A Dictionary of Modern English Usage that "The kinds of relative clause, to one of which that & to the other of which which is appropriate, are the defining & the non-defining; & if writers would agree to regard that as the defining relative pronoun & which as the non-defining, there would be much gain both in lucidity & in ease."
    So, Fowler gives his opinion of what he thinks would be better. I don't really think that that is binding on the rest of us.

    ps. Did Fowler really use the ampersand?

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    #14

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    Well, Fowler was well known for not giving 'rules' insomuch, but his ability to condescend had the equivalent force of a wrecking ball on the average writer's psyche, so they just did what he said.

    And he was a prodigious user of the ampersand.

  3. 5jj's Avatar
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    #15

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    Quote Originally Posted by CarloSsS View Post
    I've encountered the rule countless times. In grammar books, in school, on the Internet, in Michael Swan's Practical English Usage etc. Note though, that overwhelming majority of the materials I found this rule in refers exclusively to BrE.
    Swan does not give it as a rule. In the 3rd edition of PEU he simply says, on page 480, "That is common as a relative pronoun in identifying clauses".

  4. 5jj's Avatar
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    #16

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    Quote Originally Posted by William Jones View Post
    Well, Fowler was well known for not giving 'rules' insomuch, but his ability to condescend had the equivalent force of a wrecking ball on the average writer's psyche, so they just did what he said.
    Not all of them. After the lines you quoted, Fowler goes on to say, "Some there are who follow this principle now; but it would be idle to pretend that it is the practice either of most or of the best writers".

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    #17

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    He was, after all, trying to point out the usefulness of the suggestion (which later became rule--at least in the U.S.) that that and which be used accordingly. It was not then as common as it has now become; given that his text is c. 1944, its not a wonder that many were not yet following suit. But by the 1950s (when Strunk & White's Elements of Style was becoming the major text that it now is) their rule number 3 (dealing with parentheticals and relatives) was added. No longer a suggestion, but a fast rule.


    I must ask, does the copy you have also include the ampersands?

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    #18

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    Quote Originally Posted by William Jones View Post
    He was, after all, trying to point out the usefulness of the suggestion (which later became rule--at least in the U.S.) that that and which be used accordingly. It was not then as common as it has now become; given that his text is c. 1944, its not a wonder that many were not yet following suit. But by the 1950s (when Strunk & White's Elements of Style was becoming the major text that it now is) their rule number 3 (dealing with parentheticals and relatives) was added. No longer a suggestion, but a fast rule.


    I must ask, does the copy you have also include the ampersands?
    The first edition was published in 1926.

    Neither my second nor my third edition has ampersands.

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    #19

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    Along with my "Save the Subjunctive Support Group" I may have to start a "Restrictive That, Unrestrictive Which" group too. I really am one of the people who finds the distiction useful. But then, I also keep comrise and compose, and infer and imply as separate words too, despite the prevailing trends.
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

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    #20

    Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

    Quote Originally Posted by Barb_D View Post
    Along with my "Save the Subjunctive Support Group" I may have to start a "Restrictive That, Unrestrictive Which" group too. I really am one of the people who finds the distiction useful. But then, I also keep comrise and compose, and infer and imply as separate words too, despite the prevailing trends.
    Don't forget this group or 'disinterested/uninterested!

    I have to admit that I use 'that' far more than 'which' in defining relative clauses. I was simply making the point that it is not a rule in British English.

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