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    #21

    Re: Best way to teach expressions?

    In post #6 you wrote, “Regardless, there are only a couple ways to take my comment. You either omit "have" or "got" and the results are obvious”. (My underlining.)
    In post #8 you wrote, “It's like saying, "There's a couple people I want you to meet." If teachers want to teach that as acceptable, I'm just glad I'm out of school”.

    That’s fine by me, though it strikes me as a little strange that you should feel uncomfortable about a usage that appears in your own writing.
    It is the difference between "There is" and "There are." I'm not really being inconsistent.

    In some contexts the present perfect of GET has come to have the same meaning as the present simple of HAVE.
    I think this is contradictory to your comment:
    'Got', on its own, means nothing in 'have got'. 'Have got' has the same meaning as 'have'.
    Am I wrong?


    1. To have current possession of. Used in the present perfect form with the meaning of the present: We've got plenty of cash.


    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    I feel if the present perfect form is used with the meaning of the present, the wrong tense was used. I mean, if the tense were used properly, you wouldn't have to explain it in the context of another tense--you would simply explain the tense and how that tense is used.

    The idiom have got historically derives from a perfect construction. This is transparent in BeE, where got is the past participle of get. [...] Have gotis restricted to informal style, but is otherwise very common, especially in BrE.

    Huddleston, Rodney & Pullum, Geoffrey K (2002.112) The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, Cambridge: CUP
    Thanks for the quote. Why do you feel Have got is restricted to informal style? If it is grammatically correct, wouldn't it be perfectly acceptable at all levels of style?

    This quote says that have got is an idiom. Isn't this an indication that it isn't grammatically correct?
    Last edited by Tuco; 29-Jul-2012 at 03:14. Reason: Added note regarding the term "idiom"

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    #22

    Re: Best way to teach expressions?

    Oh, 5jj, I don't believe you responded to post #15 either. I think I indicated you had responded to everything, so I'll take responsibility for that, but if you could give me your thoughts on that post, it would be nice.

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    #23

    Re: Best way to teach expressions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    Why do you feel Have got is restricted to informal style?
    My own reading of academic works and comments by grammarians such as those I quoted) lead me to believe this.
    If it is grammatically correct, wouldn't it be perfectly acceptable at all levels of style?
    Many grammatically correct forms are used only informally.

    It is the difference between "There is" and "There are." I'm not really being inconsistent.
    An interesting response to a question asking how you can both condemn and use a construction.

    As far as Britain is concerned, most native speakers and writers on the subject believe that have got, with the meaning of 'possess', is grammatically acceptable. I have the impression that many Americans feel the same. You seem determined to maintain your belief that it is ungrammatical. Fine. I'll leave you to it.

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    #24

    Re: Best way to teach expressions?

    [QUOTE T50jj]Many grammatically correct forms are used only informally.
    [/QUOTE]
    Hi Troll,

    Once again, descriptive sources simply don't tell the whole story. It's confusing. They should take a page from Style Towards Clarity and Grace, and try to be more clear. When you teach description and say that an expression is "idiomatic," and used informally, it paints a picture. You don't like to admit that. You don't even like to address it.

    Unanswered Question:
    Again, you don't address why "have got" is idiomatic." Nobody that "follows this thread and "likes" your comments reads my comments and says, "You know, Tuco is right. Every time he writes something, he points out things that Troll didn't address." They are as unobservant as you are. If I seem determined to keep to my belief system, wipe the crust out of your eyes and realize that I have a reason to--or don't. You like to put a stick in my craw and giggle that you are trolling me effectively.

    An interesting response to a question asking how you can both condemn and use a construction.
    You don't see the difference between "There are a couple buildings across the street" and "There is a couple buildings across the street? You think it is interesting that I make that distinction? You don't see that I don't both condemn and use a construction? They are different.

    Unanswered Question:
    In some contexts the present perfect of GET has come to have the same meaning as the present simple of HAVE.
    Tuco: I think this is contradictory to your comment:
    'Got', on its own, means nothing in 'have got'. 'Have got' has the same meaning as 'have'.



    Uncontested Comment Troll:
    I feel if the present perfect form is used with the meaning of the present, the wrong tense was used. I mean, if the tense were used properly, you wouldn't have to explain it in the context of another tense--you would simply explain the tense and how that tense is used.

    Does Red5 run this joint? Somebody needs to have a talk with you. You could at least admit that the answer to your question was in fact waiting for you as you told me, "You have yet to answer my question..." People like your comments and all they remember is what you say, and it makes you feel all puffed. You never act like a mench and say, "Oh, you had already answered my question. Sorry." You are a troll.

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    #25

    Re: Best way to teach expressions?

    Enough! When you call a moderator a "troll" you have crossed a line.

    This thead is closed.
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

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