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  1. #1
    pootle is offline Newbie
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    Default Diagramming and analysis of subordinated clauses please

    Hello again.


    Please would someone get me going with one or both of these?

    "But the 34-year-old defeated a group of more experienced rivals for the nomination in the solid Tory area by delivering a 'hang 'em and flog 'em' manifesto that had more in common with "On Your Bike' Norman Tebbit than "Hug a Hoodie' Mr Cameron, whose approach she was quick to criticise."

    "The woman chosen as the Tories' first female Asian candidate has revealed how she fought off her rivals - by pledging to restore the death penalty and savaging David Cameron's leadership of the party."


    I need each pieve to be broken down into subject, verb, complement, adjectival etc.

    I'd be ever so grateful.

    Many thanks

    pootle





  2. #2
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Diagramming and analysis of subordinated clauses please

    Dear Pootle,

    There is something wrong with the punctuation of the first sentence. It has to do with the apostrophes or quotation marks. That has to be fixed first in order to understand what is meant. That sentence is extremely awkward, but once it has been fixed, it MIGHT make sense. And in that case the sentence can be diagrammed with the Reed-Kellogg system.

    The second one isn't so bad. but at the moment, at the moment, I don't have time to send you the diagram.

    Maybe later,

    Frank

  3. #3
    pootle is offline Newbie
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    Smile Re: Diagramming and analysis of subordinated clauses please

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    Dear Pootle,

    There is something wrong with the punctuation of the first sentence. It has to do with the apostrophes or quotation marks. That has to be fixed first in order to understand what is meant. That sentence is extremely awkward, but once it has been fixed, it MIGHT make sense. And in that case the sentence can be diagrammed with the Reed-Kellogg system.

    The second one isn't so bad. but at the moment, at the moment, I don't have time to send you the diagram.

    Maybe later,

    Frank
    Hi Frank,

    Thanks so much for taking a look for me. I think the confusion is the speech marks I have wrapped around the text. I did this to indicate that this is the quote from a newspaper/text to be analysed.

    So:

    The woman chosen as the Tories' first female Asian candidate has revealed how she fought off her rivals - by pledging to restore the death penalty and savaging David Cameron's leadership of the party.

    And:

    But the 34-year-old defeated a group of more experienced rivals for the nomination in the solid Tory area by delivering a 'hang 'em and flog 'em' manifesto that had more in common with "On Your Bike' Norman Tebbit than "Hug a Hoodie' Mr Cameron, whose approach she was quick to criticise.



    I'm particularly confused with the latter. I think the divisions in clauses are as follows but am unsure:-

    Main clause- But the 34 year old defeated a group of more experienced
    rivals for the nomination in the sold Tory area

    Subordinate clause 1- by delivering a ‘hang’ em and flog ‘em’ manifesto

    Subordinate clause 2- that had more in common with ‘On your bike’ Norman Tebbit

    Subordinate clause 3 - than ‘Hug a Hoodie’ David Cameron

    Subordinate clause 4- whose approach she was quick to criticise


    The diagramming is less important than a basic analysis of the clauses. I believe subordinate clause 2 is adjectival but what about the others.

    I think Subordinate clause 1 is adverbial because it tells us 'how' she defeated- but what type of adverbial?

    Actually- now I'm thinking that the last clause isn't a clause at all, rather a complement on David Cameron in the former clause?

    I'd love to hear your thoughts. Diagramming not necessary really- just a way to really show off!

    Many thanks

    Pootle

  4. #4
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Diagramming and analysis of subordinated clauses please

    Pootie, if I had the time to diagram this it could be so much clearer.

    But, first, I used American (Reed-Kellog) terms. What you call "subordinate clause #1 is not a clause at all but rather a gerund PHRASE. Also "more...than" is a correlative conjunction. The two words should be understood as working together.

    This would simply take me more time than I have right now.

    Frank

  5. #5
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: Diagramming and analysis of subordinated clauses please

    [QUOTE Diagramming not necessary really- just a way to really show off!

    [/QUOTE]


    Hello, Pootle:

    Please! Please! Please! Don't think that! The Reed-Kellogg diagramming is the best way for us ordinary people to really understand the parts of a sentence. It serves as a map. When you get time, you can ask Mr. Antonson for websites where you can start studying it. Or even better, some books.

    *****

    May I have permission to discuss your second sentence?

    But = some books say that when "but" starts a sentence, we can consider it an absolute element. That is, it has no grammatical connection to the sentence. It is diagrammed separately from the rest of the sentence.

    1. I agree with you: the "skeleton" of your sentence is: She defeated a group of more experienced rivals in a solid Tory area.

    2. How did she defeat them? "By delivering a "hang them and flog them" manifesto."

    a. In my humble (very humble) opinion, that is a prepositional phrase that modifies (attaches to) the verb "defeated."

    i. by = preposition
    ii. delivering a "hang them and flog them" manifesto = gerund phrase that is the object of the preposition "by."

    3. "that had more common with Mr. Tibbet than Mr. Cameron."

    i. IMHO, my No.3 is an adjective (relative) clause that modifies "manifesto."

    4. "Whose approach she was quick to criticise."

    i. IMHO, my No. 4. is an adjective clause that modifies Mr. Cameron.

    *****

    If (a big "if") I am correct, you will see how beautifully all those parts fit together in a Reed-Kellogg diagram when Mr. Antonson has time to make one for us.

    Viva Reed-Kellogg!


    James
    Last edited by TheParser; 09-Sep-2012 at 17:12.

  6. #6
    5jj's Avatar
    5jj is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Diagramming and analysis of subordinated clauses please

    "But the 34-year-old defeated a group of more experienced rivals for the nomination in the solid Tory area by delivering a 'hang 'em and flog 'em' manifesto that had more in common with "On Your Bike' Norman Tebbit than "Hug a Hoodie' Mr Cameron, whose approach she was quick to criticise."
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    There is something wrong with the punctuation of the first sentence. It has to do with the apostrophes or quotation marks. That has to be fixed first in order to understand what is meant. That sentence is extremely awkward, but once it has been fixed, it MIGHT make sense. And in that case the sentence can be diagrammed with the Reed-Kellogg system.
    This does rather confirm one of my reservations about Reed-Kellogg. Apart from the two double quotes, which I have highlighted (they need to be single quotes) that sentence, to this speaker of BrE, is not awkward. It may not be particularly elegant, but it does make sense. If R-K can't cope with it, then that seems to me to be a failing of R-K, not of the sentence.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    But = some books say that when "but" starts a sentence, we can consider it an absolute element. That is, it has no grammatical connection to the sentence. We can forget it.
    Another reservation of mine. Can we really 'forget' part of the sentence before we R-K it? If I start a sentence with 'but', I consider it to be part of the sentence.

  7. #7
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: Diagramming and analysis of subordinated clauses please

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    Another reservation of mine. Can we really 'forget' part of the sentence before we R-K it? If I start a sentence with 'but', I consider it to be part of the sentence.
    You are correct. The misstatement has been corrected.

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