[Grammar] T. Ray don't know nothing.

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sunbride

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Dear Teacher,

'Does T. Ray know what you're doing?'
'T. Ray don't know nothing.' These sentences are from the bestseller The Secret Life of Bees by Sue Monk Kidd. The whole book is also a text for discussion in the present CPE exam.

I don't understand why the writer uses 'don't' instead of 'doesn't' in the second sentence.
It is very strange to me, while the dual negative structure is not, I have come across with it several times.
But using 'don't' when refering to a person who is not present, I cannot explain. Would it be accepted in modern American English? Or does it have a special meaning, context, connotation? Thank you for help.
 

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Hello,

I have read that in the 19th century, many educated people here in the States and in the United Kingdom regularly used "don't" with the third person. Then school teachers kept beating into students' heads that the correct form should be "doesn't." So today, if a person says "He don't," that person is considered by many people to be (pardon the word) "ignorant" or "poorly educated."

NOTES:

1. Was that "bestseller" set in the 19th century?
2. Does that "bestseller" describe a "poorly educated" person?
3. From 1913 - 1921, our president was Woodrow Wilson. I have read that he regularly said in private things such as "He don't," but in public he was always careful to use "doesn't."


James
 

SoothingDave

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The connotation is that the speaker doesn't know proper English.

You might hear this type of construction in certain groups, but it is not acceptable for formal use.
 

sunbride

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Dear James,
Thank you for help. The bestseller is set in the middle of the 20th century. It describes a 14 years old girl whose teacher finds her very talented, especially in literature. The author is from the Southern United States and the story takes place there, too.

Dear ShootingDave,
Thank you for your notes. Do you think 'don't' in the third person can be accepted at all? I mean as an 'informal' way.
 

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Informally, among a peer group it is accepted. I don't talk that way, unless I am doing it for emphasis. "He don't know who he's messing with."
 

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You must expect that characters in fiction will speak in non-standard dialects.

"He doesn't know anything" is standard. "He don't know nothing" is exactly what you would expect from a character who doesn't know proper grammar or who doesn't care about social conventions and using "good" English.
 
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sunbride

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To ShootingDave: your emphasis explanation seems to be the closest to what I feel from the situation in the novel. The speaker is not poorly educated and has no special dialect but someone who has to know proper grammar. In other conversations she speaks standard.

To Barb_D: as far as I understand you imply that 'don't' with the 3rd person in some cases can be regard as a 'dialect.' I will remember that, thanks.

I would be interested in your views about the following part of Chris Rea lyrics. The singer was born and lives in the UK:

And on the bus there is a friend of mine
We go way back to the scene of the crime
We sit up front and share a cigarette
And try to remember what we tried to forget

He say "Do you remember?"
He say "Do you recall?"
I say yeah I remember, oh, I remember it all (Windy Town)

How can you explain this "He say" instead of 'he says'? I really want to understand such grammar usage, so I am grateful for all your help.
 

bhaisahab

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To ShootingDave: your emphasis explanation seems to be the closest to what I feel from the situation in the novel. The speaker is not poorly educated and has no special dialect but someone who has to know proper grammar. In other conversations she speaks standard.

To Barb_D: as far as I understand you imply that 'don't' with the 3rd person in some cases can be regard as a 'dialect.' I will remember that, thanks.

I would be interested in your views about the following part of Chris Rea lyrics. The singer was born and lives in the UK:

And on the bus there is a friend of mine
We go way back to the scene of the crime
We sit up front and share a cigarette
And try to remember what we tried to forget

He say "Do you remember?"
He say "Do you recall?"
I say yeah I remember, oh, I remember it all (Windy Town)

How can you explain this "He say" instead of 'he says'? I really want to understand such grammar usage, so I am grateful for all your help.

It is not a good idea to look for good grammar in popular songs.
 

sunbride

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To bhaisahab: But it's no reason for using 'he say' by a British singer unless it is accepted in any usage of English.
'Says' would not be longer and can be sung as well. Does it have any common with my first quote at the beginning of the thread?

If I listen to a Hungarian pop song (I am Hungarian), it can contain some shorter, simplier grammatical solution compared with the formal language or it can contain slang, informal or even derogative expressions, but not gramatically wrong structures. That's why I would like to understand the reason for 'he say' as well. I must think it is also correct or accepted in a way, but what way?
 
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Grumpy

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Having just listened to a couple of recordings [on YouTube] of Chris Rea singing this song at different times in his career, I don't think he actually sings "He say" : I think he sings "He said". It can be difficult to pick out the difference, as he tends to cut off the last part of the word. If you look up the lyrics online, as I have also just done, they are printed as "He said".
 

Rover_KE

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We are not the Grammar Police. People who wilfully choose to distort the language are free do so with impunity, despite our disapproval.

We are here to help those with exams to pass or who want to improve their own standard of English.

We do not attempt to defend the indefensible; we just tell you that it happens and recommend that you do not emulate it.

Rover
 

sunbride

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To Grumpy: I have looked it up and found 'He say' in the lyrics online, and in my original CD booklet also printed 'he say'. So it is not just what I may have misheard. I understand that 'he said' also can be found in other versions and the singer can cut off the ends, however I am still a bit confused about it.

To Rover: I just wanted to understand whether my examples were grammatically wrong and not accepted or they could be used in certain situations which I was not familiar with, because English is not my native language. Furthermore, as I mentioned, the book of Sue Monk Kidd is a recommended text for CPE Exam. It is always confusing to find something similar in a book / song written by native speakers. That's all.
 
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TheParser

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Hello, Sunbride:


Many years ago, I was commenting on the "bad" English in popular music when a young person told me that I

was all wet (wrong). He explained that the one-syllable "don't" is often used instead of the correct two-syllable

"doesn't" because it fits better into the rhythm of the lyrics.


James
 

Grumpy

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In that case, I reckon that whoever transcribed the lyrics online and on the CD case also misheard what Chris Rea sang! Seriously, if he did occasionally sing "He say", then he probably did it for dramatic effect; thinking it sounded a bit more "edgy" and "street-wise" than using the correct term. He could get away with it in a song: don't try it in normal written or spoken English.

The same goes for "Don't know nothing". Many people mangle the English language, either through simple ignorance of the correct usage, or knowingly to create a specific effect. The latter is perfectly legitimate, but that doesn't make it grammatically correct.
 

sunbride

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To James: It sounds strange to me, I mean using 'don't' instead of 'doesn't' in lyrics, just because the first fits better..., probably because my own native language has very strict inflexion rules for each person singular and plural. We can use (very rarely) grammatically wrong forms to make an effect, but in this case I surely can tell you what kind of effect we create this way. I suppose the 'young person' you mention, is a native American. Thank you for the useful information, I'll surely remember your explanation any time I come across a similar use of English. And I will learn 'to be all wet' as well.

To Grumpy: In this case it's a pity that some (or several?) transcripts contains 'he say' in the lyrics of this song, especially because learners of English try (very hard) to follow the rules of the language and they have no doubts when coming across any texts (spoken or written) by native speakers. So you say 'don't know nothing' creates an edgy feeling, too, and - as far as I can summarize the comments above - it also has a special emphasis. I must realize again that English cannot be compared with other languages, perhaps because it is so widely used. Thank you for help.
 

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Hello,


It is I again!

You stated that people always speak grammatically in your native language.

In English, however, what is "grammatical" is changing. The people are changing it. It is a very democratic

process.

For example, probably 95% of people now say "It is me."

Furthermore, sometimes there are social reasons for speaking "bad" English. For example, if a big, tough American football

player said "It is I," some of his friends might think that he was "strange."

Today we hear (from very well-educated people) things such as:

Me and my friend went to Disneyland. (My friend and I ....)
This secret is just between you and I. (between you and me)



James
 

sunbride

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I understand. Hungarian natives do make "mistakes" but usually not grammatical ones. Our language is also changing - like any other living thing - but perhaps not so rapidly as English, because Hungarian is much more separated.
As for your examples, they are - I suppose - more common among English learners than 'don't' instead of 'doesn't'.
Thanks again.
 

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To James: It sounds strange to me, I mean using 'don't' instead of 'doesn't' in lyrics, just because the first fits better..., probably because my own native language has very strict inflexion rules for each person singular and plural. We can use (very rarely) grammatically wrong forms to make an effect, but in this case I surely can tell you what kind of effect we create this way. I suppose the 'young person' you mention, is a native American. Thank you for the useful information, I'll surely remember your explanation any time I come across a similar use of English. And I will learn 'to be all wet' as well.

Maybe it's the fact that I've seen about 1,000 American movies, but to me, 'It don't matter to me what all them people say' doesn't sound all that unusual. I wouldn't say or write it (and I don't recommend that you do), but I've heard it so many times that it doesn't sound weird or unusual. It makes sense in the right context.
 
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TheParser

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As for your examples, they are - I suppose - more common among English learners than 'don't' instead of 'doesn't'.

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

1. I cannot answer your question.

2. But I think that I am correct that most native speakers would never use "don't" instead of "doesn't."

Some of those same people, however, might say "between you and I" because they actually think that they

are speaking proper English. They probably feel that I is more elegant than the "lowly" me. I also suspect that

some of them vaguely remember their teachers telling them that "It is I" is correct. So they become confused and

just throw in an elegant I. "Between you and I" may also be traced to the same reason.


James


P.S. Come to think of it, since learners usually learn "book English," probably more learners say "It is I" than do native speakers!
 
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sunbride

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It makes sense in the right context.
I absolutely accept it if natives think that it is right. I just wanted to understand what could be 'the right context' you were talking about.
 
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