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    #1

    Question [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    When we say "to live in the place," there is a preposition "in." Therefore, when "to-V" becomes the modifier of "the place," the preposition "in" should also be there to complete its function--thus "the place to live in.'

    However, the teacher's manual I'm using (in Taiwan) has the guidelines that say "when some specific nouns like 'place, day and time' are used, the preposition can also be omitted."

    Is this true to American, British and Australian style? Is it awkward or natural? Should the omission of the preposition be applied to only these three words "place, day and time" or should there be more nouns that can be used like this? And in what kind of category(nature, objects, tools, seasons,....) should we predict and expect to see this?

    Why do you think you can accept the omission of preposition? Is it a trend in oral English but not in written? Or is it also a formal writing style? Is there a country difference? Is the reason also unknown even for native speakers?

    Thank you in advance.

  1. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    Quote Originally Posted by simile View Post
    When we say "to live in the place," there is a preposition "in." Therefore, when "to-V" becomes the modifier of "the place," the preposition "in" should also be there to complete its function--thus "the place to live in.'

    However, the teacher's manual I'm using (in Taiwan) has the guidelines that say "when some specific nouns like 'place, day and time' are used, the preposition can also be omitted."

    Is this true to American, British and Australian style? Is it awkward or natural? Should the omission of the preposition be applied to only these three words "place, day and time" or should there be more nouns that can be used like this? And in what kind of category(nature, objects, tools, seasons,....) should we predict and expect to see this?

    Why do you think you can accept the omission of preposition? Is it a trend in oral English but not in written? Or is it also a formal writing style? Is there a country difference? Is the reason also unknown even for native speakers?

    Thank you in advance.
    It depends on context.

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    #3

    Re: [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    So I guess this would be something like a trend in the language users' feelings. In some unspeakable contexts, speakers tend to omit the preposition while others, don't. It's like a kind of speakers' option for some contexts in which the omission wouldn't do any harm to the meaning. But this is only limited to some specific wording.

  2. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #4

    Re: [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    Quote Originally Posted by simile View Post
    So I guess this would be something like a trend in the language users' feelings. In some unspeakable contexts, speakers tend to omit the preposition while others, don't. It's like a kind of speakers' option for some contexts in which the omission wouldn't do any harm to the meaning. But this is only limited to some specific wording.
    There is nothing wrong with omitting the preposition in sentences like "It's a nice place to live", in fact it's more natural without it. However, the preposition is necessary in "I live in Timbuctoo", for example.
    Last edited by bhaisahab; 20-Oct-2012 at 21:17.

  3. Chicken Sandwich's Avatar
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    #5

    Re: [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    Quote Originally Posted by simile View Post
    So I guess this would be something like a trend in the language users' feelings. In some unspeakable contexts, speakers tend to omit the preposition while others, don't. It's like a kind of speakers' option for some contexts in which the omission wouldn't do any harm to the meaning. But this is only limited to some specific wording.

    NOT A TEACHER


    Two more examples that you may find helpful:

    Kagoshima is a good place to live/work/be.
    Kagoshima is a good city to live/work/be.

    See this thread.

  4. 5jj's Avatar
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    #6

    Re: [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    More than three months later, I still haven't come up with a convincing explanation.

  5. emsr2d2's Avatar
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    #7

    Re: [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    Their is nothing wrong with omitting the preposition in sentences like ...
    There is nothing wrong with omitting the preposition but there just might be something wrong with your post!
    Remember - correct capitalisation, punctuation and spacing make posts much easier to read.

  6. Chicken Sandwich's Avatar
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    #8

    Re: [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    More than three months later, I still haven't come up with a convincing explanation.
    Are you sure that there is an explanation? I'm no expert by any means, but I believe that so many things in English do not really have a logical explanation. It's certainly odd that you can leave out "in" with "place" but not with "city" or "country" as the difference isn't all that signigicant, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's just 'the way it is'. Just throwing it out there .

  7. 5jj's Avatar
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    #9

    Re: [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken Sandwich View Post
    Are you sure that there is an explanation?
    No

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    #10

    Re: [Style] "the place to live in" vs "the place to live"

    How can I tell my students why the omission is acceptable and correct? Can I interpret it as a modern usage? And this is only applicable to the three words "time, place and day." And do not generalize it to other words.
    ...kill John at the time --> ...the time to kill John (The omission of "at" is correct.)
    ...marry Linda on the very day --> ...the very day to marry Linda (The omission of "on" is correct.)
    ...live in the place --> ...the place to live (The omission of "in" is correct.)


    "Sunday is the very day to marry Linda on." --> This sounds unnatural to me, too!!
    "Copenhagen is a beautiful place to live in." --> It sounds good.
    "Copenhagen is a beautiful place to live." --> It sounds good.
    "Copenhagen is a beautiful city to live." --> Is this OK? (Maybe OK to spoken English?)
    "Mamamia is the restaurant to have dinner in" --> Unnatural!!


    What about wh-clause?
    "...the place where I live" -->OK
    "...the place which I live in" --> OK
    ''...the place in which I live" --> OK
    "...the place which I live" --> NOT OK!!

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