[Grammar] How to understand them?

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coolfool

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Someone said someone else once wrote or said:

A government is a government is a government.
and
A crime is a crime is a crime.

Grammatically, how to interpret them?

Thanks a lot.
 

TheParser

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Wow! What a cool (!!!) question!


1. I was able to find a scholarly book on the Web. The author even draws a diagram to explain it, but it was too difficult for

me to understand.

2. He says that such sentences are an example of clause chaining.

3. He discusses "A lie is a lie is a lie."

a. He says that the noun phrase ("a lie") functions simultaneously [at the same time] as the predicate

nominative in one clause and as the subject of the following clause.

i. I guess that he means the second "a lie" is the subjective complement of the first "a lie" and is also the subject to which

the third "a lie" refers.

b. The scholar writes: "I would say that the clausal repetition renders the expression emphatic."

4. You can read his analysis by going to Google and typing in these words:

Grammar and Conceptualization page 168 a lie is a lie

*****

This 1999 book was written by Dr. Ronald W. Langacker.

Thanks a million for the question. I learned the term "clause chaining" today -- thanks to you and Dr. Langacker.


James
 

coolfool

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A crime is a crime is a crime. is supposed to be Crime is crime is crime., according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher. Accordingly, we may also say

Government is government is government.
and
Lie is lie is lie.
specially in spoken expression without indefinite article.
 

5jj

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A crime is a crime is a crime. is supposed to be Crime is crime is crime., according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher. Accordingly, we may also say

Government is government is government.
and
Lie is lie is lie.
specially in spoken expression without indefinite article.
There is no reason why we should not say 'a crime is a crime is a crime'. 'Lie is lie is lie' is not possible; 'lie, is countable.
 

coolfool

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1. So are the crime in A crime is a crime is a crime. and the government in A government is a government is a government. Both are countable here, too, like the lie in A lie is a lie is a lie.

2. I wrote "... we may also say...". It doesn't exclude either.

3. What I was told was Thatcher once said "A crime is a crime is a crime." It turns out to be "Crime is crime is crime."
 

Tdol

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TheParser

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3. What I was told was Thatcher once said "A crime is a crime is a crime." It turns out to be "Crime is crime is crime."


***** NOT A TEACHER *****


Hello,



I personally feel that there is a difference.

1. Suppose a man steals a donut, and the court wants to send the man to prison for a year. Someone might say that stealing a donut is not really a crime. And the judge might answer: A crime is a crime is a crime. (Stealing a donut is a crime just as stealing a diamond ring is a crime. The amount of money makes no difference.)

2. On the other hand, I can understand why Lady Thatcher said what she is reported to have said. I believe that you have to understand the situation in the United Kingdom at the time. Some people (I have read) felt that there was too much lawlessness. So Lady Thatcher would not have been referring to one single crime (such as stealing a donut) but to the overall general climate. At that time, here in the United States, many people were also calling for more "law and order."


James
 

SlickVic9000

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Sentences like these remind you of the limits of written language. The stresses and emphases of speech lend another dimension of meaning to a word, phrase, or sentence.
 

coolfool

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Hello,



I personally feel that there is a difference.

1. Suppose a man steals a donut, and the court wants to send the man to prison for a year. Someone might say that stealing a donut is not really a crime. And the judge might answer: A crime is a crime is a crime. (Stealing a donut is a crime just as stealing a diamond ring is a crime. The amount of money makes no difference.)

2. On the other hand, I can understand why Lady Thatcher said what she is reported to have said. I believe that you have to understand the situation in the United Kingdom at the time. Some people (I have read) felt that there was too much lawlessness. So Lady Thatcher would not have been referring to one single crime (such as stealing a donut) but to the overall general climate. At that time, here in the United States, many people were also calling for more "law and order."


James

I'm afraid the actual meaning of the patten under discussion lies more often than not at the following sentence, nowadays, besides the overall general climate or context. What Thatcher actually said, for instance, is "Crime is crime is crime; it is not political."
 

coolfool

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Sentences like these remind you of the limits of written language. The stresses and emphases of speech lend another dimension of meaning to a word, phrase, or sentence.


Even Paradise has serpent.
 

Tdol

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I'm afraid the actual meaning of the patten under discussion lies more often than not at the following sentence, nowadays, besides the overall general climate or context. What Thatcher actually said, for instance, is "Crime is crime is crime; it is not political."

Margaret Thatcher was talking about the IRA, and others, in prison, who considered themselves to be political prisoners and not criminals. She was not talking about the specific instances of what individuals had done, but about their actions in general being criminal and not political. They had a number of demands, including not doing prison work or wearing prison clothes. They were not denying what they had done, but regarded them as political acts as freedom fighters, not ordinary criminals, and she said this as a firm way of trying to reject the idea. This context makes not using the article correct, but crime can be both countable and uncountable, while lie cannot. She's using the Gertrude Stein sentence pattern to reject the notion that crime can be political.
 

Odessa Dawn

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Wow! What a cool (!!!) question!


1. I was able to find a scholarly book on the Web. The author even draws a diagram to explain it, but it was too difficult for

me to understand.

2. He says that such sentences are an example of clause chaining.

3. He discusses "A lie is a lie is a lie."

a. He says that the noun phrase ("a lie") functions simultaneously [at the same time] as the predicate

nominative in one clause and as the subject of the following clause.

i. I guess that he means the second "a lie" is the subjective complement of the first "a lie" and is also the subject to which

the third "a lie" refers.

b. The scholar writes: "I would say that the clausal repetition renders the expression emphatic."

4. You can read his analysis by going to Google and typing in these words:

Grammar and Conceptualization page 168 a lie is a lie

*****

This 1999 book was written by Dr. Ronald W. Langacker.

Thanks a million for the question. I learned the term "clause chaining" today -- thanks to you and Dr. Langacker.


James

"The pragmatic inanity of the mentality driving this is self-evident: as I discussed yesterday (and many other times), continuous killing does not eliminate violence aimed at the US but rather guarantees its permanent expansion. As a result, wrote Miller, "officials said no clear end is in sight" when it comes to the war against "terrorists" because, said one official, "we can't possibly kill everyone who wants to harm us" but trying is "a necessary part of what we do". Of course, the more the US kills and kills and kills, the more people there are who "want to harm us". That's the logic that has resulted in a permanent war on terror."

More:
Siamese twins of the 'war on terror': 20 more years whether Obama or Romney wins

Dear James, can we say that the underlined part is clause chaining?
 

TheParser

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Dear James, can we say that the underlined part is clause chaining?


***** NOT A TEACHER *****


Great question.

I do not know the answer.

I shall not be able to sleep until I know the answer.

Hopefully, someone will answer us -- so that I can get some sleep.

If you find the answer, please share it.


James
 

TheParser

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Of course, the more the US kills and kills and kills, the more people there are who "want to harm us".


Dear James, can we say that the underlined part is clause chaining?

***** NOT A TEACHER *****



Hello,


Thanks to Google books, I think that I shall be able to get some sleep tonight!

Apparently, at least one term for such an expression is verbal reduplication.

*****

Here are three references that I found:

1. The Scene of Linguistic Action by Rene Dirven.

a. An example of "repetition of the verb" is "I'm talking, talking, talking all the time."

[My note: As you know, a comma often is a substitute for the word "and." So maybe that sentence

means "I'm talking and talking and talking all the time."]

2. Marathi by R. Pandharipande. Marathi is a language spoken by 8% of the people in India.

a. The author calls this sentence an example of "verbal reduplication":

ti bol bol bolli = She talk talk talked. = She talked a lot.

3. The Handbook of Language Contact was edited by Raymond Hickey.

a. He says that in Singlish [a form of English spoken in Singapore], they have this sentence:

We all eat - eat - eat = keep eating/ eat a lot.

*****

So I guess that we could say/ write:

Country X kills and killls and kills.

Country X kills, kills, kills.


*****

I learned something new about English -- thanks to your question and Google. Now I can turn off my

computer for the day.


James
 

Odessa Dawn

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We have ...
Clause chaining
Then we have ...
Verbal reduplication

"Towards that end, they set out to control not only the economy, not only property, not only the political sphere, but also sports, leisure time, hospitals, universities, summer camps, children's afterschool activities, art, music, and museums."

More: The Collaborator's Song - By Anne Applebaum | Foreign Policy


Thank you so much for your definitive answers. What do we call the underlined parts, dear James?



"They did not necessarily believe that idea that the party, the party, the party is always right, but nor did they stop singing the song."

More: The Collaborator's Song - By Anne Applebaum | Foreign Policy

Also, I think we can say that the underlined part right here is a
clause chaining, can't we?
 

TheParser

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"Towards that end, they set out to control not only the economy, not only property, not only the political sphere, but also sports, leisure time, hospitals, universities, summer camps, children's afterschool activities, art, music, and museums."



What do we call the underlined parts



"They did not necessarily believe that idea that the party, the party, the party is always right, but nor did they stop singing the song."


Also, I think we can say that the underlined part right here is a
clause chaining, can't we?

***** NOT A TEACHER *****


Thanks to you, I have learned "clause chaining" and "verbal reduplication."

I have no idea as to what those examples of yours should be called in grammatical terms.

Hopefully, some of the wonderful teachers (and well-informed non-teachers) will tell us.


James

P.S. I shall say, however, that I am 50% "sure" that your last sentence is not an example of clause chaining, for the subject
("the party") is simply being repeated.
 

TheParser

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Good morning from sunny California!

I have not found the answer, but I have found some items that may interest you.

1. One source* says that REPETITION is "an instance of using a word, phrase, or clause more than once in a short passage -- dwelling on a point." [dwell on a point = to focus attention on a point.]

a. This source gives this example from 1970's England:

Spam, spam, spam, spam. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!

[Spam is a meat product. I love it!]

2. Another source ** says that repetition is used to repeat "for emphasis or to slow a moment." Its example is: And he thought and thought and thought about them.''

It is also used for emphasis and lyricism: Hello Hello Hello / Cold Cold Cold. ["lyricism" = enthusiasm , especially when unrestrained and exaggerated. Reference: Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.]

3. Another source*** gives this example of repetition: Everywhere I looked, there were children, children. (I believe the source feels this example of repetition "indicates extent.")

4. Finally, another source**** reminds us of a repetition that is used by many native speakers:

There are teachers and there are teachers. = There are good teachers, and there are bad teachers.

a. Here is my bad example:

Tom: Are you voting tomorrow?
Mona: No. All politicians are the same.
Tom: Well, there are politicians and there are politicians. I think that you should really vote tomorrow.
[ = There are good politicians and there are bad politicians. Contrary to how you may feel, you should vote tomorrow.]


James


* Mr. Richard Norquist's grammar advice website.
** Mesdames Susan Ehmann and Kellyann Gayer, I Can Write Like That! (Google books).
*** Professor Quirk (and colleagues), A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (1985), page 1,441.
**** Professors Quirk and Greenbaum, A Concise Grammar of Contemporary English (1973), page 275.
 
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