singular or plural?

Status
Not open for further replies.

perfectera

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Japanese
Home Country
Japan
Current Location
Japan
Hello.
I have a question:
If 2 subjects are connected with 'or', a verb is set for singular or plural?
For example,
They or he have or has? to take responsibility.

Thanks in advance.

mi
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
I'd go for:

S or S + singular verb
S or P + plural verb
P or P + plural verb.

I would avoid using P + S, though if for some reason it occurred, I'd go for the plural form of the verb.
 

perfectera

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Japanese
Home Country
Japan
Current Location
Japan
5jj,
Thanks for your advice!mi
 

nelson13

Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Zhuang
Home Country
Bangladesh
Current Location
Japan
I'd go for:

S or S + singular verb
S or P + plural verb
P or P + plural verb.

I would avoid using P + S, though if for some reason it occurred, I'd go for the plural form of the verb.

With all due respect, I can't agree with 5jj, although I still have a lot to learn from him.

In English, according to the principle of proximity, the verb form wholly depends on the noun nearest to the verb, when OR is used in the subjects, so in the example given by the thread starter, you can only say

They or he has to take responsibility.
 

bhaisahab

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
Ireland
With all due respect, I can't agree with 5jj, although I still have a lot to learn from him.

In English, according to the principle of proximity, the verb form wholly depends on the noun nearest to the verb, when OR is used in the subjects, so in the example given by the thread starter, you can only say

They or he has to take responsibility.

That would sound unnatural IMO.
 

nelson13

Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Zhuang
Home Country
Bangladesh
Current Location
Japan
That would sound unnatural IMO.

Yes, it may.

But grammar and naturality sometimes can be divorced.

In English-speaking countries, you can often hear:

XYZ and me are going to....

If you replace ME with I, for certain native English speakers will say it's strange, but in the sentence, the two persons are the subjects, so I is the only grammatical form.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
You are comparing two different things. The majority of at least moderately educated speakers of English consider 'XYZ and me are going to' be substandard. (This may not be true soon, but that's the situation at present). To the majority, 'They or me has' or 'they or I am' sound unnatural. Artificial grammar rules can't make an unnatural thing natural. The 'principle of proximity' is an observation, not a law.
 
Last edited:

Chicken Sandwich

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Russian Federation
Current Location
Netherlands
In English, according to the principle of proximity, the verb form wholly depends on the noun nearest to the verb, when OR is used in the subjects, so in the example given by the thread starter, you can only say

They or he has to take responsibility.

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Martin Hewings would disagree with your "rule". Perhaps the following extract may shed some more light on this matter:

When a subject is made up of two or more items joined by (either)...or... or (neither)...nor... we use a singular verb if the last item is singular (although a plural verb is sometimes used in informal English), and a plural verb if the last item is plural:

  • Either the station or the cinema is a good place to meet, (or ...are... in informal English)
  • The President or his representatives are to attend the meeting.
If the last item is singular and previous item plural, we can use a singular or plural verb:

  • Either the teachers or the principal is to blame for the accident. (or ...are to blame...)
(Advanced Grammar in Use - Martin Hewings, p. 82)

If you replace ME with I, for certain native English speakers will say it's strange...

I think that most native speakers who use the "XYZ and me" or "Me and XYZ" construction would recognize that "XYZ and I" is also possible, if not more correct. It just so happens that the wrong construction is used by speakers, despite being ungrammatical. I think that those who'd say something like "Me and my buddy went to the pub" know that ths construction is ungrammatical. Why? Well, no native speaker would say "Me went to the pub".
 
Last edited:

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
I think that those who'd say something like "Me and my buddy went to the pub" know that ths construction is ungrammatical. Why? Well, no native speaker would say "Me went to the pub".
I am not sure that I agree with you there. 'Me and Joe went to the pub' appears to be very natural for many speakers of BrE, though they would not say 'Me went to the pub'. Prescriptive grammarians in the past reasoned that the subject of a verb must be in the 'nominative case' and self-effacement meant that the speaker must come second; therefore, it must be 'Joe and I ...'; 'Me and Joe' was sub-standard. The prescriptivists succeeded in this case in that the 'correct' form is taught in schools, and used by those who like to consider themselves educated.

Many speakers, however, ignore the rule once they leave school, and revert to their natural form. With heroes from the world of music, sport, soaps and reality shows as role models for many, the use of the 'sub-standard' form appears to be increasing. It is commonly seen in print in magazines aimed at lower socio-economic classes, and it is practically standard in some chatrooms. I would not be too surprised if the 'correct' form went the way of 'whom' and 'shall' one day.
 

blackdragon

Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2012
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Vietnamese
Home Country
Vietnam
Current Location
Vietnam
either...or....
neither...nor....
not only.....but also..
==> the subject and verb agreement could be found on the subject close to or, nor, but also.

* S1 ,as well as ,
* S1,together with ,
* S1, accompanied by ,
==> the subject and verb agreement could be found on the subject 1
 

nelson13

Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Zhuang
Home Country
Bangladesh
Current Location
Japan
***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Martin Hewings would disagree with your "rule". Perhaps the following extract may shed some more light on this matter:

When a subject is made up of two or more items joined by (either)...or... or (neither)...nor... we use a singular verb if the last item is singular (although a plural verb is sometimes used in informal English), and a plural verb if the last item is plural:

  • Either the station or the cinema is a good place to meet, (or ...are... in informal English)
  • The President or his representatives are to attend the meeting.
If the last item is singular and previous item plural, we can use a singular or plural verb:

  • Either the teachers or the principal is to blame for the accident. (or ...are to blame...)
(Advanced Grammar in Use - Martin Hewings, p. 82)



I think that most native speakers who use the "XYZ and me" or "Me and XYZ" construction would recognize that "XYZ and I" is also possible, if not more correct. It just so happens that the wrong construction is used by speakers, despite being ungrammatical. I think that those who'd say something like "Me and my buddy went to the pub" know that ths construction is ungrammatical. Why? Well, no native speaker would say "Me went to the pub".

I have that book by Martin Hewings, but I can honestly tell you that Mr Hewings will even say THERE IS A TABLE AND A CHAIR is standard English. I have to say sorry because I can't give you further evidence, as since living at the university I haven't been able to get access to my grammar books and my house is on another island; another thing is I have to prepare for my examination so a long and detailed answer is not possible. As to the NEITHER part of English grammar, you can use whatever verb you like, because writers including Samuel Johnson would support my point with their usage in essays.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
I can honestly tell you that Mr Hewings will even say THERE IS A TABLE AND A CHAIR is standard English.
I haven't a copy of Advanced Grammar in Use to hand, but I would be surprised if Hewings said that that was standard English.
 

Chicken Sandwich

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Russian Federation
Current Location
Netherlands
I have that book by Martin Hewings, but I can honestly tell you that Mr Hewings will even say THERE IS A TABLE AND A CHAIR is standard English.

Now I'm really confused! What's wrong with 'There is a table and a chair in the kitchen'? The verb agrees with its nearest complement, so why is this sentence problematic?

there is / there are

In your example of there is, Tanya, it is as if the items are being counted separately:
There’s a chair and there’s a table in the room SO there’s a chair and table in the room.

But note:
There are three chairs and a table in the room.
There’s a table and three chairs in the room.

Learning English | BBC World Service

As to the NEITHER part of English grammar, you can use whatever verb you like, because writers including Samuel Johnson would support my point with their usage in essays.

I'm not sure if I follow you here. Did you mean to say "... but writers including..."?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top