[Vocabulary] Prepositions: What a big headache!!

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Hugo_Lin

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Attention:
I reposted some of my unanswered questions in the #23 posts (page 3). Please have a look at it. And I might update this thread on a regular basis, would keep it preposition-only. Will new updates be answered? Do I need to start new threads?
Thanks for all answerers in advance.

Hi, native speaker friends:


I've always found prepositions hard to learn. Most of the time the question is which one to use, but sometimes I'm not even sure whether or not to use a preposition at all! Here's an example:
I have a lot to do at this weekend.​
I have a lot to do in this weekend.​
I have a lot to do this weekend.​


Other examples being:
He sits on the front row.​
He plays violin at the front row.​
Sarah will be playing piano in/on/at the concert.---which one is correct?
Two men stood in the street.​
Two men stood on the street.​
I'm making a great effort refraining myself from slapping her on the face.​
I'm making a great effort to refrain myself from slapping her on the face.

I thought he was at school.
He studied french in school.

what's the difference between shortbread and shortcake?
What's the difference of shortbread and shortcake?


I find this problem very disturbing. Please help. Thanks.


BTW, are there rules to follow? Do you native speakers also find it hard to grasp prepositions?


Many thanks in advance.
 
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bhaisahab

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Hi, native speaker friends:


I've always found prepositions hard to learn. Most of the time the question is which one to use, but sometimes I'm not even sure whether or not to use a preposition at all! Here's an example:
I have a lot to do at this weekend.​
I have a lot to do in this weekend.
I have a lot to do this weekend.
"At the weekend" or "this weekend" without a preposition.

Other examples being:
He sits on the front row. Possible.
He plays violin at the front row. "In" or "on".
Sarah will be playing piano in/on/at the concert.---which one is correct? "in" or "at".
Two men stood in the street. OK
Two men stood on the street. OK
I'm making a great effort refraining myself from slapping her on the face.​
I'm making a great effort to refrain myself from slapping her on the face. "in the face".

I thought he was at school.
He studied French in school. Both are possible.

what's the difference between shortbread and shortcake?
What's the difference of shortbread and shortcake?


I find this problem very disturbing. Please help. Thanks.


BTW, are there rules to follow? Do you native speakers also find it hard to grasp prepositions? No.


Many thanks in advance.

There are no rules. It's just the way we say things.
 

Hugo_Lin

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There are no rules. It's just the way we say things.

Many thanks, Mr./Mrs. bhaisahab. :)

But I meant to ask:
I'm making a great effort refraining myself from slapping her in the face.​
I'm making a great effort to refrain myself from slapping her in the face.​

"I'm making a great effort doing something" or "I'm making a great effort to do something. "

My English teacher(not a native speaker) says only the latter(to do) is acceptable. But the former one sounds natural to me too.

And:
what's the difference between shortbread and shortcake?​
What's the difference of shortbread and shortcake?
between or of, which one is good?

I know I ask too many questions. *blushes*

Deep bows,

Hugo
 

emsr2d2

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As I said in my previous response on another thread, there is absolutely no reason to attempt to address people using the "Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms" titles. It is sufficient to just use their username. So the first sentence of your previous post would have been perfectly acceptable as "Many thanks, bhaisahab". We do understand that the culture in some countries is to always use a title, but this is an English forum and English culture and traditions generally apply. Apart from anything else, it doesn't make any difference what gender the people who help out are. We are all the same - volunteer people. Please use only the username from now on. Thank you.
 

Hugo_Lin

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As I said in my previous response on another thread, there is absolutely no reason to attempt to address people using the "Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms" titles....
Hi, emsr2d2:

I used title before I saw your posts. Note the time. Won't use them again. ;)
 

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Hello, Mr. Lin:

I have been speaking only English for 75 years, and prepositions still confuse me, too. I know how you feel.

Here are a few points that may be of interest:

1. Many years ago, two English brothers, the Fowlers, reminded us that prepositions are a matter of idiom.

They said that dictionaries and grammar books cannot give us all the answers. The Fowler brothers said that

if we wish to use the "correct" preposition, there is one essential thing: "good reading." In other words, you need to

read widely and, I may add, keep notes on the use of various prepositions. To make the situation more "fun," please

accept the fact that prepositions may be different from country to country and even within a country.

a. In the United States, we live on a street. I believe that British people are usually said to live in a street. While most Americans do not work on the weekend, most Brits rest at the weekend.

b. Here in California, we stand in line, but New Yorkers stand on line.

c. As the Fowler brothers said, prepositions are idiom (the way native speakers have decided to speak). Therefore, they

change with the times. When I was young, "everybody" said "The baby is on his mother's lap." I have noticed that nowadays

many Americans say "in his mother's lap."

i. I read several years ago that there is a "war" going on between "in" and "on." That is, one of them is taking over the work

of the other one. But I forget which one is winning.

d. We would say "The protesters are rioting in the street" (because they are actually marching in the area that we call a street), but we say (in the United States) "In December, you see a lot of people on the streets" (that is, on the sidewalks). If they were "in" the street, they would get hit by automobiles!

e. Should I be respectful of my teacher or respectful to my teacher? I think that "to" may be winning the "war."

f. I think that one still asks a question/ favor of someone. (Not "to.")


*****

Well, I think that you get the point. Prepositions are very confusing. The only way to learn them is to dive into the language through wide reading and careful listening to English speakers.

One last example (I could continue forever): One day I was astonished (a little shocked) when I read a British newspaper

say something like:


"The Times newspaper has been banned in country X. This is the first time for three years that this has happened."

Americans would have said "in." I later learned that some British are now using "in" in such sentences!


James
 

Odessa Dawn

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While most Americans do not work on the weekend, most Brits rest at the weekend.

James

Over the weekend, Netanyahu said he spoke with a number of leaders, including U.S. President Barack Obama.
More: Netanyahu: Israel 'prepared for a significant expansion' of Gaza operations - CNN.com


Help me with this dear James, is there any difference between what has been stated in the given text and your example when it comes to over and on.

 

emsr2d2

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Hi, emsr2d2:

I used title before I saw your posts. Note the time. Won't use them again. ;)

Sadly, I don't have the time to check the times on each post but I apologise if I appeared to be nagging you without giving time for you to read the relevant posts.

The irony of the first three words of the The Parser's response in post #6 is not lost on me! ;-) (Note, I am aware that The Parser was not being ironic.)
 

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Over the weekend, Netanyahu said he spoke with a number of leaders, including U.S. President Barack Obama.
More: Netanyahu: Israel 'prepared for a significant expansion' of Gaza operations - CNN.com


Is there any difference between what has been stated in the given text and your example when it comes to over and on.


***** NOT A TEACHER *****Hello,


Thank you for your kind note.

I shall let a better-informed person answer you.

I, too, want to know the answer.


James
 

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(The forum loads very slow for me despite my 4M bandwidth. Previous reply got lost on a click. Reposting. But have forgotten some of what I prev)


Hi, James:
Hearty thanks for such a detailed explanation. Are the Fowler brothers famous linguists?


You've given very good general rules there.


I sometimes google for the correct prepositions. Usually chose the one with the most google results. Just like you said: prepositions is a matter of idiom. So I follow the mass majority.;)


I also have to ask you not to call me mister. One feels very upset being called mister by a respectable senior gentleman. ;)


Again, thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy post. ^_^


And bows to all answerers.:)




Hugo
 

TheParser

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Hello, Hugo:



1. I believe in formality. I always address non-family with titles. I think that it is important to show respect.

Since you have asked me not to, however, I shall honor your request. (I also used to address or refer to the great

teachers here with titles, but this upset them. So I now just use their user names.) (P.S. I hear that the teachings of

Confucius -- who believed in good manners -- are again being taught in your country. That's great. In my opinion only,

I think that Confucian ethics are needed here in the United States, too!)

2. Oh, yes! The Fowler brothers were "stars" of good English. As I understand it, many English people in the 1920's

were seeking advice on good English. So Henry Watson Fowler (his brother had died in the Great War) produced a magnificent

book entitled Dictionary of Modern English Usage in 1926. I have the second and third editions. Some people today "laugh"

at his book as being "old-fashioned." In fact, one modern grammarian named Randolph Quirk said that Mr. Fowler was not

a real grammarian. Another person ridiculed his book. She said something like this: If you can understand Mr. Fowler's

book, you deserve a medal! Nevertheless, many people still admire his book (especially the first and second editions).

If you ever happen to see his book on sale, do buy it. I think that it will fascinate you, as has happened to many people

since 1926. As you can tell, the Fowler brothers are my heroes -- along with Florence Nightingale and Confucius.


James


P.S. He and his brother produced a magnificent book in 1906 called The King's English. It's a classic. You can probably find sections of their books on the Web.
 
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5jj

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As you can tell, the Fowler brothers are my heroes -- along with Florence Nightingale and Confucius.
What's happened to GOC?

If you are interested in how Fowler thought people should write in 1926, Hugo, then his book is indeed fascinating. However, if you want a guide to today's usage, then Fowler is hopelessly outdated.
 
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Hugo_Lin

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Both advice will be taken seriously, 5jj and Mr. Parser. ;) And many thanks.

Since you're also a believer in formality and courtesy, I think I can call you mister without bothering you? Mr. Parser ;)

There's a big difference between western and Asian cultures. We only pay respect "upward" (Upward or upwardly?). Which means I can call you mister because you're senior to me. Also I can call my boss mister. But can't be the other way round.

I was once amazed by the fact that in a movie I saw (Scent of a Woman), in a high school, every students was addressed as Mister. It's unthinkable in China.

Also we can definitely not be on first-name terms with seniors or superiors. That's why I feel a little upset calling you James.

Btw, the name James makes me feel like there're many Jame on the other side of the web. ;)

But China is now very internationalized and many Chinese would follow Westerners' tradition. They might be on first-name terms with Westerners, but definitely would not be with fellow Chinese seniors.

If you were Chinese, it'd be very rude of me to call you James.

Speaking of Confucius, he's a bit controversial in China. Some scholars contend that Confucism is the very spiritual base that helped Chinese rulers slave people's souls. That said, Confucism does have its redeeming values. Sadly, many Chinese are ignorant of Confucius teachings, myself included.

However I do believe in courtesy.

Some sentences deleted. See post #16


I don't want to go any further. Thinking of these make me mad.
 
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TheParser

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Hello, Hugo:


I would love to reply to your last paragraph, but on?/ in? the "Ask a Teacher" forum, we must limit our comments

to language matters -- nothing political or sociological. So I have to keep my mouth shut.

James
Jim
Jimmy
Jimbo
 
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emsr2d2

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The drawback with "Mr Parser" is that it doesn't really make any sense. We use the formal addresses "Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms" before someone's surname/family name. A username is not the same kind of name. It is just a name specifically for use on the net and I would say that it's not just that it doesn't require a title before it, I would say that putting a title before it is simply wrong. I don't mean wrong culturally or traditionally, but literally just wrong.
If someone's username were 123ZX7343 it really would be very odd indeed to refer to them as, for example "Miss 123ZX7343". Do you see my point?
 

5jj

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I would love to reply to your last paragraph, but on?/ in? the "Ask a Teacher" forum, we must limit our comments to language matters -- nothing political or sociological.
:up:. Thanks.

Parser is absolutely right. This forum is read by members of all nationalities, religious beliefs, sexual orientations, poltical beliefs, etc. We are free to express our opinions about language (provided we do so in a reasonably civilised manner) but we don't enter other fields. There are plenty of other forums around for that.

I have, reluctantly, deleted some parts of post #13. They were not about language, and might offend one group of people.
 

Hugo_Lin

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:up:. Thanks.

Parser is absolutely right. This forum is read by members of all nationalities, religious beliefs, sexual orientations, poltical beliefs, etc. We are free to express our opinions about language (provided we do so in a reasonably civilised manner) but we don't enter other fields. There are plenty of other forums around for that.

I have, reluctantly, deleted some parts of post #13. They were not about language, and might offend one group of people.

Quite understandable. Forgive my rant, please.
 

Hugo_Lin

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Hi, folks, I forgot that two of my questions were still unanswered.
Since they were ignored here's a reposting:

I'm making a great effort refraining myself from slapping her in the face.
I'm making a great effort to refrain myself from slapping her in the face.​

"I'm making a great effort doing something" or "I'm making a great effort to do something. "?

My English teacher(not a native speaker) says only the latter(to do) is acceptable. But the former one sounds natural to me too.

And:
what's the difference between shortbread and shortcake?​
What's the difference of shortbread and shortcake?​
between or of, which one is good?


New questions:

1. gesture for/toward me (which one is correct? Or both acceptable but have different meanings?)

2. on the right (of something or somebody)
to the right (of something or somebody)
on the right-hand side (of something or somebody)​
All acceptable? No differences?


Many thanks.
 
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Over the weekend, Netanyahu said he spoke with a number of leaders, including U.S. President Barack Obama.



Is there any difference between what has been stated in the given text and your example when it comes to over and on.



***** NOT A TEACHER *****



Hello, Odessa Dawn:



I was mortified (ashamed of myself) for not knowing the answer. Until I read your question, I had never thought about this matter in my 75 years of life.

I have found an answer. It satisfies me. It may not satisty everyone. I present it for your consideration.

*****

1. Over the weekend, the prime minister spoke with a number of world leaders.

a. When you see a bridge, do you notice that it "spans" the river? That is, it goes across the whole river. Well, one source says that when "over" is used for time, it means "to span." My source gives this sentence: "over the weekend."

b. My second source brings out the meaning more clearly by explaining that "over the weekend" probably means that the prime minister spent Saturday and Sunday talking with world leaders. (That is, his talks spanned the whole two days.)


2. On the weekend, the prime minister spoke with world leaders.

a. This may indicate that the prime minister spoke with world leaders on Saturday and Sunday, or only on Saturday, or only on Sunday.

b. This is only my thought. Neither of my sources gave this: If I invite you to a party "on" the weekend, I am probably referring to a party on either Saturday or Sunday. (Yes, I have heard that some wild parties last all weekend! In such a case, I guess that I would say: I'm having a party over the weekend. Drop in anytime during the weekend. There will be lots of
food, 1960's music, and -- only respectable dancing, dude!)


James

First source: Mesdames Marianne Celce-Murcia and Diane Larsen-Freeman, The Grammar Book / An ESL/EFL Teacher's Course (1983), page 258.

Second source: an excellent online teacher named Jennifer. (Or as I am more comfortable in referring to her: Miss Jennifer.)
 

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