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Thread: True or False

  1. #1
    Vaedoris is offline Newbie
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    Default True or False

    When a subordinate conjunction is used in a sentence, it always introduces a subordinate clause. Is this statement true or false?


    I found these two sentences in my book:

    1. You look at me as if I were from another planet.

    2. She treats me as an equal.


    The subordinate clause in the first sentence, as if I were from another planet, is introduced by the conjunction as if. In contrast, however, the conjunction as in the second sentence is followed by the noun phrase an equal (is this a noun phrase?) instead of a clause.

    If the top statement is true, the second sentence must have a subordinate clause but what is it? Is it abbreviated? Then, what is the true/implied form?



    Please, please, please help me correct any (preferably all) mistakes that you can find in this post. I find it very hard to write.

    Thank you
    Last edited by Vaedoris; 12-Dec-2012 at 08:31. Reason: Missing comma
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  2. #2
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: True or False

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    Good morning, Vaedoris:


    I think that I have found an answer from the greatest grammarian that ever lived (my opinion, of course!).

    1. With utmost respect, I believe that the writer of the second sentence actually wanted to say:

    "She treats me like an equal."

    a. Here is what that scholar wrote:

    Like ... [denotes] mere similarly: "He treats his wife like a child."

    [My comments: Of course, she is not a child. They both, say, are 30 years old, but he treats his wife as if she were a child,

    which she is not. In your sentence, she treats me as if I were her equal, which I am not.]

    *****

    I shall not speculate on the meaning of "She treats me as an equal."

    Let's see what others say.


    James


    My source: Professor Dr. George Oliver Curme, A Grammar of the English Language (1931). Vol. II., page 123.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: True or False

    She treats me as an equal. 'As' is functioning as a preposition.
    Please do not edit your question after it has received a response. Such editing can make the response hard for others to understand.


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    Default Re: True or False

    Thank you Mr Parser and 5jj for your answers.

    That makes sense. As can function as a preposition or conjunction depending on its usage.

    It didn't cross my mind to replace as with like.

    I guess the author of the book made a small mistake by writing the second sentence after the introduction of subordinate conjunction.
    Last edited by Vaedoris; 13-Dec-2012 at 04:05.
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: True or False

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedoris View Post
    It didn't cross my mind to replace as with like.
    There is no need to.
    I guess the author of the book made a small mistake by writing the second sentence after the introduction of subordinate conjunction.
    There is no mistake in 'She treats me as an equal'. As I told you, 'as' functions as a preposition in that sentence
    Please do not edit your question after it has received a response. Such editing can make the response hard for others to understand.


  6. #6
    Vaedoris is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: True or False

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    There is no need to.
    I agree, but as TheParser explained, if I replace 'as' with 'like', it becomes clear that 'as' functions as a preposition in the sentence.

    Isn't 'like' a preposition?

    There is no mistake in 'She treats me as an equal'. As I told you, 'as' functions as a preposition in that sentence
    I didn't mean to say there is a mistake in that sentence. I'm sorry: I didn't make it quite clear about that.

    I guess what confused me is that the sentence with the 'as' functioning as a preposition appears in the section of the book that explains coordinate conjunctions in particular their uses in introducing subordinate clauses.

    Let me quote a part of the section.
    The relationship that the subordinate conjunction creates between main and subordinate clauses may carry one of several meanings:

    Manner
    Subordinate conjunctions such as as and as if can imply a sense of manner.

    You look at me as if I were from another planet.

    She treats me as an equal.
    Last edited by Vaedoris; 13-Dec-2012 at 08:01.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: True or False

    The idea of "true or false" is about whether something if factually correct.

    She treats me as an equal might be grammatically correct, but false if she treats me with contempt.
    She done treat me likes I was same as her is not grammatically correct, but true if she treats you as an equal.

    I be 99 years old - false and grammatically incorrect
    I be 46 years old - true and grammatically incorrect
    I am 99 years old - false and grammatically correct
    I am 46 years old - true and grammatically correct

    A lot of learners misuse "true" to mean correct. They are not the same.
    Last edited by 5jj; 14-Dec-2012 at 11:54. Reason: minor typo
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: True or False

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    Good morning, Vaedoris:


    At the present time, we non-teachers are allowed to post in "Ask a Teacher" so long as we start with "Not a teacher" and do not post something really crazy. So I shall try to limit my opinions and report only experts' comments.

    1. Many books agree that the word "as" is a real "troublemaker."

    2. One book * says this:

    a. "They regarded him as an honest man."

    i. "An objective complement with the introductory as is sometimes related in meaning to an adverbial element."

    ii. It then claims that "He was regarded as a vagabond" is an ellipsis for "He was regarded as a vagabond is regarded."

    [Only my comment: As (!) you can see, surely "as" is a conjunction in the presumed complete sentence.]

    iii. Here's another of its examples: "This tree will serve us as a windshield."

    (a) You have probably already guessed what the complete sentence -- according to this book -- is:

    "This tree will serve us as a windshild would serve us."

    [Only my comments: If you accept the above analysis, then could we say that "She treats me as an equal" as meaning "She treats me as an equal is treated"? That is, we are both equals. "She treats me in a way in which an equal is treated." I once read this sentence written by a man who refused to stop his friendship with a disgraced politician: "I refuse to treat him as a pariah is treated."

    3. There is a book ** that is used as a guide by teachers throughout the world. It says this:

    a."The preposition as designates a copular relation, particularly in specifying a role or status associated with the direct object."

    i. It states that "treat as" is a unit. That is, the preposition "as" is obligatory.

    ii. In small print, it has this interesting comment: "Although as is classified as a preposition in the above pattern, it in some ways resembles the conjunction as which introduces clauses of comparison."


    4. Finally here are two sentences from another book.*** (a) As a friend he stood by me to the end. (b) Like a friend he came to me and exchanged a few words with me, but I knew that he was inwardly not friendly disposed toward me.

    The scholar says that (a) "expresses complete identity , oneness with": (b) "indicates mere similarity."

    [My thoughts only: Would it be possible to say that (a) means "He stood by me to the end as a friend would stand by me to the end"?]


    James

    * Walter Kay Smart, English Review Grammar (1940), pages 138 and 227.

    ** Randolph Quirk et. al, A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (1985), pages 1,200 - 1,201.

    *** Professor Dr. George Oliver Curme, A Grammar of the English Language (1931), page 34.


    P.S. "Some of our shortest words make the most trouble and the most kinds of trouble. One of the worst troublemakers is as." -- Wilson Follett, Modern American Usage (1980 edition), pages 73 - 74.
    Last edited by TheParser; 13-Dec-2012 at 14:09.

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    Vaedoris is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: True or False

    Quote Originally Posted by Barb_D View Post
    The idea of "true or false" is about whether something if factually correct.

    She treats me as an equal might be grammatically correct, but false if she treats me with contempt.
    She done treat me likes I was same as her is not grammatically correct, but true if she treats you as an equal.

    I be 99 years old - false and grammatically incorrect
    I be 46 years old - true and grammatically incorrect
    I am 99 yeras old - false and grammatically correct
    I am 46 years old - true and grammatically correct

    A lot of learners misuse "true" to mean correct. They are not the same.
    Thank you for the explanation, but I'm getting a little bit confused here.

    I just want to know whether this statement is true:

    When a subordinate conjunction is used in a sentence, it always introduces a subordinate clause.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  10. #10
    Vaedoris is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: True or False

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post


    Good morning, Vaedoris:



    a. "They regarded him as an honest man."

    i. "An objective complement with the introductory as is sometimes related in meaning to an adverbial element."

    ii. It then claims that "He was regarded as a vagabond" is an ellipsis for "He was regarded as a vagabond is regarded."

    [Only my comment: As (!) you can see, surely "as" is a conjunction in the presumed complete sentence.]

    iii. Here's another of its examples: "This tree will serve us as a windshield."

    (a) You have probably already guessed what the complete sentence -- according to this book -- is:

    "This tree will serve us as a windshild would serve us."

    [Only my comments: If you accept the above analysis, then could we say that "She treats me as an equal" as meaning "She treats me as an equal is treated"? That is, we are both equals. "She treats me in a way in which an equal is treated." I once read this sentence written by a man who refused to stop his friendship with a disgraced politician: "I refuse to treat him as a pariah is treated."

    3. There is a book ** that is used as a guide by teachers throughout the world. It says this:

    a."The preposition as designates a copular relation, particularly in specifying a role or status associated with the direct object."

    i. It states that "treat as" is a unit. That is, the preposition "as" is obligatory.

    ii. In small print, it has this interesting comment: "Although as is classified as a preposition in the above pattern, it in some ways resembles the conjunction as which introduces clauses of comparison."


    4. Finally here are two sentences from another book.*** (a) As a friend he stood by me to the end. (b) Like a friend he came to me and exchanged a few words with me, but I knew that he was inwardly not friendly disposed toward me.

    The scholar says that (a) "expresses complete identity , oneness with": (b) "indicates mere similarity."

    [My thoughts only: Would it be possible to say that (a) means "He stood by me to the end as a friend would stand by me to the end"?]


    James

    P.S. "Some of our shortest words make the most trouble and the most kinds of trouble. One of the worst troublemakers is as." -- Wilson Follett, Modern American Usage (1980 edition), pages 73 - 74.
    Good morning to you too Mr Parser, although where I am it is already dark.

    Again, thank you for your very informative post.



    How do I begin. What you just told me about the ellipsis is also mentioned in my book, but the author used the term "abbreviated".

    However, I find it hard to see that this sentence has an ellipsis, or as the author of my book put it, the subordinate clause is abbreviated: They regarded him as an honest man.

    Just like you said, I think 'as an honest man' is an adverbial modifying the pronoun 'him', and on second thought, I think 'as an honest man' is actually a prepositional phrase which functions as an adverbial modifying the object 'him'. Therefore, the phrase is an object complement.




    Based on what I have gathered, I think
    depending on how it is used, the word 'as' can function as either an adverb, a preposition, or a subordinate conjunction.




    Also, thank you for this. I've just learned something new.
    4. Finally here are two sentences from another book.*** (a) As a friend he stood by me to the end. (b) Like a friend he came to me and exchanged a few words with me, but I knew that he was inwardly not friendly disposed toward me.

    The scholar says that (a) "expresses complete identity , oneness with": (b) "indicates mere similarity."


    I apologize for editing this post so many times. The commas were driving me mad. I'm sweating.

    Last edited by Vaedoris; 13-Dec-2012 at 17:34.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

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