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Thread: determined upon

  1. #11
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    Default Re: determined upon

    Having nothing better do do a few minutes ago, I played with COCA. Of some 50,000 citations for the verb 'determine' only nine had it used with 'upon'. (There were a few more with 'on')

    An admittedly very superficialglance over a couple of hundred suggested that nearly all the 'determine's meant something along the lines of 'discover something about, calculate' or 'officially make something happen, decide definitely to do something'.

    There were six citations for 'determine/s/d a course of action', one for 'determine/s/d on a course of action' and none for 'determine/s/d upon a course of action'.
    Please do not edit your question after it has received a response. Such editing can make the response hard for others to understand.


  2. #12
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    Default Re: determined upon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaskin View Post
    hi,
    Please note I'm not a teacher nor a native speaker.

    What strike me with the OP example is that although I think I understand the sentence in question yet I'm unable to give the answer to OP's question. And on top of that I can't fully agree with what already been said.
    So I determined upon finding the answer. I decided that I weigh in even though I didn't find it.

    Man was formerly thought to be a reasoning animal, basing his actions on the conclusions of natural logic....Momentous decisions are made, far-reaching actions are determined upon, primarily by the force of suggestion.

    I understand that the second sentence could read :
    Momentous decisions and far-reaching actions are based primarily on/upon the force of suggestion. [as contrary to 'basing it on the conclusions of natural logic']

    But I wouldn't say that
    determined upon means based on/upon.I was searching for examples of usage in BNC to help me grasp the meanings of and the difference between determined upon and determined. I thought that I'd post it here. I hope it will be somehow helpful.

    First some examples where I think is impossible to omit the preposition. [I'm not sure if it conveys the same meaning] :


    1. Presumably, if the House of Commons chose to determine upon the fate of a Bill by drawing lots or tossing a coin, it would be within its competence to do so.
    2. Having attained a First Class degree in History in 1935, he then determined upon a doctorate, which he completed in 1938


    could the preposition be omitted ? :In #1, absolutely and should be. In #2, Improper use of "determined". Should/could be replaced by "decided upon".

    1. Once the pact was(?) made, action, and instantaneous action, was determined upon. Use of "upon" is incorrect , or at least, unnecessary.
    2. In the course of inquiry objectives are set and a specific course of action is determined upon from a set of alternative courses of action. "Upon" is unnecessary and incongruous with "from" (use one or the other).
    3. There must be some period at which the military and the diplomatic or political forces are brought together, and in my view, this ought to be before action is determined upon. "Upon" is unnecessary.

    some sentences with upon + by.:


    1. Complaints were carried to Carthage, and war was determined upon by the influence of Annibal in the Carthaginian senate OK.
    2. All cases of amputation must either be first designated for operation by the surgeon in charge of the hospital, or be determined upon by a majority vote of a board of at least ...OK.

    [lot of the above examples are dating back to 1800's ]

    some examples with determined by :

    1. Now if this only means what was before asserted, that our actions are determined by pleasure and pain, that simple and unambiguous mode of stating the proposition is preferable
    2. That is, we feel that our voluntary actions are determined by causes within us, and not outside us.
    3. According to this tradition, moral agents act autonomously when their actions are determined by their reason, rather than by irrational impulses, habits, or emotions.

    All OK but could use "actions are determined upon by".



    cheers,

    b.

  3. #13
    billmcd is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: determined upon

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    If you say "Have you determined a course of action?", does it mean "it's finished" rather than giving the nuance of "thinking about something and making a decision"?
    "Finished" in terms of reaching a decision, but the action has not necessarily begun.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: determined upon

    I don't want to care about the difference as 5j confirmed there's little difference between the two, except for the frequencies by speakers. Anyway, thanks a lot for everyone!

  5. #15
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    Default Re: determined upon

    I'm sorry, Raymott! This is not related to the original question, but about conditionals. Could you help me with this?
    When you said this, did you consider in mind that this sentence is contrary(counter) to "far-reaching actions are determined upon " or it wouldn't just happen as a counterfactuality? I've been curious about if native speakers have contrary notions of something when making conditionals.

    ...If you simply had, "The far-reaching actions of humans are determined", that would be ambiguous.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: determined upon

    Quote Originally Posted by keannu View Post
    I'm sorry, Raymott! This is not related to the original question, but about conditionals. Could you help me with this?
    When you said this
    [What? Do you mean the sentence below? That's not how I wrote it, but I'll assume it's what you mean.] , did you consider in mind that this sentence is contrary(counter) to "far-reaching actions are determined upon " or it wouldn't just happen as a counterfactuality? I've been curious about if native speakers have contrary notions of something when making conditionals.

    ...If you simply had, "The far-reaching actions of humans are determined", that would be ambiguous.
    I wrote, "If you simply had, "The far-reaching actions of humans are determined", that would be ambiguous."
    Yes, of course it's contrary, if by 'contrary', you mean demonstrating a contrary principle, such as that of ambiguity, which exists in my sentence but not the one you wrote.
    It's shorthand for "You wrote a whole paragraph containing "far-reaching actions are determined upon'. However, if you had written instead 'The far-reaching actions of humans are determined', that would be ambiguous."
    I didn't have to express it as a conditional. I could have written, "However, 'The far-reaching actions of humans are determined' is ambiguous."

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