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  1. #1
    hkgoddess is offline Newbie
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    Smile Can "that" be omitted in this sentence

    Hi there,

    This is a similar threat I posted two days ago. Since I haven't found it from the New Posts and there has been no reply, I try post it again. That thread was my very first one posted on this website and I am not sure whether I did everything correctly.

    Can "that" in the following sentence be omitted? And the reason?

    I find (that) this garden is beautiful.

    I would appreciate any contribution to help resolve this issue.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Raymott's Avatar
    Raymott is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Can "that" be omitted in this sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by hkgoddess View Post
    Hi there,

    This is a similar threat I posted two days ago. Since I haven't found it from the New Posts and there has been no reply, I try post it again. That thread was my very first one posted on this website and I am not sure whether I did everything correctly.

    Can "that" in the following sentence be omitted? And the reason?

    I find (that) this garden is beautiful.

    I would appreciate any contribution to help resolve this issue.

    Thank you.
    It would be more common to leave out both 'that' and 'to be'. "I find this garden beautiful."
    With other verbs (think, believe), just leave out 'that'. I think this garden is beautiful."
    With some verbs (consider) - "I consider this garden to be beautiful."

    The relevant point is that you can leave out 'that' in all of them. This is a feature of English that you should look up in a grammar book or webpage, since the answer is not simple and the work's already been done often enough. You could start here: (or search for "omitting that".)
    BBC World Service | Learning English | Learn it

  3. #3
    hkgoddess is offline Newbie
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    Re: Can "that" be omitted in this sentence

    Thank you so much, Raymott for responding to my question and providing a very useful link. I am delighted to read the first reply to my first thread.

    This question was asked by a student. Like you, my first response was to leave out 'that' and 'is'. (Sb find sth/sb + adj.)
    And I think the next choice would be 'I find that this garden is beautiful.' Am I correct on this?
    His teacher considered "I find this garden is beautiful" wrong. And he put forth an argumet that the 'that' was just being left out since 'that' can often be omitted. "I find (that)......"

    I am not sure whether it is a grammar rule or just a habit of usage for "find". (Sb find sth/sb + adj.)

    I read the BBC link you had provided and noticed 'found (out)' is one of those reporting verbs that do not require 'that' in formomg a complex sentence. So, in that sense, I could safely say, 'I found out this garden was beautiful.' And if out can also be omitted (since it is in parentheses), this sentence will read as, 'I found this garden was beautiful.' Is this grammatical or a strange expression?

    I agree with you absolutely that the answer is not simple. And it seems find doesn't work well with that.

    I found out it's more complicated than I thought!

  4. #4
    Raymott's Avatar
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    Re: Can "that" be omitted in this sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by hkgoddess View Post
    Thank you so much, Raymott for responding to my question and providing a very useful link. I am delighted to read the first reply to my first thread.

    This question was asked by a student. Like you, my first response was to leave out 'that' and 'is'. (Sb find sth/sb + adj.)
    And I think the next choice would be 'I find that this garden is beautiful.' Am I correct on this? You could say that. But it's not as common. Eg. "I found him revolting!" Sure, you don't have to say it that way.

    His teacher considered "I find this garden is beautiful" wrong. And he put forth an argumet that the 'that' was just being left out since 'that' can often be omitted. "I find (that)......" Yes, but they are two different issues. Leaving out "that" has no bearing on putting in "is". He's right about "that". I'd call ""I find this garden is beautiful" wrongish. I find it unnatural. [sic]

    I am not sure whether it is a grammar rule or just a habit of usage for "find". (Sb find sth/sb + adj.) It's what we say. I think the teacher was right at least to being it to attention.

    I read the BBC link you had provided and noticed 'found (out)' is one of those reporting verbs that do not require 'that' in formomg a complex sentence. So, in that sense, I could safely say, 'I found out this garden was beautiful.' And if out can also be omitted (since it is in parentheses), this sentence will read as, 'I found this garden was beautiful.' Is this grammatical or a strange expression?
    No, you cannot leave out "out". "Find" means consider, think. "Find out" means discover. And you preferably shouldn't leave out "that" with "discover". "I discovered that this garden was beautiful" because "I discovered this garden ... " has the reader thinking you discovered the garden, but in fact it was something about the garden that you discovered.

    I agree with you absolutely that the answer is not simple. And it seems find doesn't work well with that.

    I found out it's more complicated than I thought!
    Yes, it's probably more complicated than I thought too. Most of the opinions above are guidelines, not strict rules.

  5. #5
    hkgoddess is offline Newbie
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    Re: Can "that" be omitted in this sentence

    Thanks again, Raymott, for the detailed reply. I agree find and find out are different in meaning. I am just puzzled why the parentheses were put around out.

    "Find out" means discover. And you shouldn't leave out "that" with "discover". "I discovered that this garden was beautiful."

    So in using 'found out', I should keep 'that' in the sentence instead of omitting it, i.e. "I found out that it's more complicated than I thought!"

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    Re: Can "that" be omitted in this sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by hkgoddess View Post
    Thanks again, Raymott, for the detailed reply. I agree find and find out are different in meaning. I am just puzzled why the parentheses were put around out.

    "Find out" means discover. And you shouldn't leave out "that" with "discover". "I discovered that this garden was beautiful."

    So in using 'found out', I should keep 'that' in the sentence instead of omitting it, i.e. "I found out that it's more complicated than I thought!"
    Maybe I should stop giving this advice (or find a new way of explaining it) - no one understands it! No, I was referring to the verb 'discover' this time.
    I mean you should not leave out 'that' if it leads the reader to go off on a wrong track, and have to read the sentence again.

    I'll have a another go: If you write, "I discovered that the garden ..." you will prevent the reader from assuming that you discovered the garden, especially in a long sentence: "I discovered the garden, overgrown with weeds and obviously long neglected, actually belonged to my uncle."
    You haven't discovered the garden. You already knew about the garden. You've discovered something about the garden. If that sentence had used "that" the reader would not go off on a tangent believing that you've just discovered the garden.

    Here's another example: "I discovered a new way of explaining this grammatical point was not what I needed!" Using "that" is preferable here.

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