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Thread: How to diagram

  1. #21
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Re: How to diagram

    Here is the link for my diagramming of the sentence a la R.K

    For UsingEnglish com 2 - YouTube

  2. #22
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Re: How to diagram

    I made a video on Youtube of the diagram of this sentence and a little discussion about it. I posted the link here over a week ago, but since I have had to re-register, my posts don't seem to be getting onto the forum. I am trying again.

  3. #23
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Re: How to diagram

    Ok. It seems to be working. Here is the link:

    For UsingEnglish com 2 - YouTube

    We'll see it I manage to get it on this time.

  4. #24
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Re: How to diagram

    Let me try this.

    The name of the videos is "For UsingEnglish com 2 " without the quotation marks. My Youtube Channel is Frank Antonson. Maybe the problem is that I am including the link within a post.

  5. #25
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Re: How to diagram

    I meant "video". And I forgot the "." in "UsingEnglish.com" in the title on my channel.

  6. #26
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Re: How to diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson1 View Post
    I made a video on Youtube of the diagram of this sentence and a little discussion about it. I posted the link here over a week ago, but since I have had to re-register, my posts don't seem to be getting onto the forum. I am trying again.
    Frank,
    A person cannot post links until they have posted ten times- posts have to be approved if they have links to reduce advertisers and spammers. They can be seen now. If you want, you can use your old account too- I sent you an email about it. PM me if you're interested.

  7. #27
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    Re: How to diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson1 View Post
    Ok. It seems to be working. Here is the link:

    For UsingEnglish com 2 - YouTube

    We'll see it I manage to get it on this time.
    I watched your video and I really appreciate the effort you put into it. You did fine until you reached the point that you didn't know what to do with the noun clause. You seemed to think that a passive voice verb cannot take a direct object. In fact, it can if it is ditransitive.

    For reference, the original sentence is: "I am persuaded that he is able to do it."

    Persuade is often a ditransitive verb. Let's look at a possible active voice version of that sentence: Tom persuaded me that he is able to do it.

    That would be: Subject (Tom) - verb (persuaded) - indirect object (me) - direct object (noun clause).

    When changing that to passive voice, the indirect object (me) becomes the subject of the sentence. That has no effect on the original direct object which remains the direct object. The original subject becomes the agent and can be omitted from the passive voice sentence. I would place the conjunction (your function word) on a horizontal dotted line above the noun clause, which would be on stilts. Problem solved.

  8. #28
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Re: How to diagram

    Thanks for watching my video. You might find those other links that I put in the description of interest -- especially the one about publications on R-K.

    What you have said sounds okay to me, I just don't think it is "Reed-Kellogg". I have never heard of a "ditransitive" verb. Perhaps that is another way to deal with an objective complement. How would you diagram "The group elected me president."? That would be a classic example of an objective complement. By extension, "I was elected president". "I was chosen to be president". "Me" as an indirect object did not occur to me because it would be awkward to put "to" or "for" in front of it. If the sentence were "Tom told me that he is able to do it" or "I was told that he is able to", it would be a different case.

    In any case, yes, I would put "that" on a shelf atop a dotted line coming up from the base line right after the subject-predicate divider in the noun clause.

    I guess the issue is only what to call "that" and whether the noun clause is a direct object or an objective complement.

    Again, thanks for watching my video. I am sorry that it took so long to get the word out.

  9. #29
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Re: How to diagram

    Dear Tdol,

    My old email address was at the school where I worked. I believe that they have discontinued it. That was the problem. I don't mind starting over. My new email address is EMAIL REMOVED - Send PM to This User Instead

  10. #30
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    Re: How to diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson1 View Post
    Thanks for watching my video. You might find those other links that I put in the description of interest -- especially the one about publications on R-K.

    What you have said sounds okay to me, I just don't think it is "Reed-Kellogg". I have never heard of a "ditransitive" verb. Perhaps that is another way to deal with an objective complement. How would you diagram "The group elected me president."? That would be a classic example of an objective complement. By extension, "I was elected president". "I was chosen to be president". "Me" as an indirect object did not occur to me because it would be awkward to put "to" or "for" in front of it. If the sentence were "Tom told me that he is able to do it" or "I was told that he is able to", it would be a different case.

    In any case, yes, I would put "that" on a shelf atop a dotted line coming up from the base line right after the subject-predicate divider in the noun clause.

    I guess the issue is only what to call "that" and whether the noun clause is a direct object or an objective complement.

    Again, thanks for watching my video. I am sorry that it took so long to get the word out.
    Well, in my opinion, we need to look at Reed-Kellogg for what it is and what is is not. It deals almost exclusively with parts of speech in a sentence and graphically represents how the individual parts interact with each other. "Ditransitive verb" is not a part of speech (verb is). A ditransitive verb is one which takes two objects, direct and indirect. Dictionaries list verbs as transitive and intransitive. A verb must be transitive to be ditransitive, but not all transitive verbs can be ditransitive.

    John threw the ball (transitive).
    John threw Joe the ball (ditransitive).

    John ate a pie (transitive).
    John ate Joe a pie.

    In "The group elected me president", one could call "president" an objective complement, but I would usually call it a "resultative adjective". A resultative adjective occurs postpositively to the noun/pronoun it modifies. It describes the change in the noun/pronoun created by the action of the verb.

    Examples: John cooked the steaks rare. (The action of the verb changed "steaks".)
    Mr. Jones painted his fence white. (The action of the verb changed "fence".)
    The group elected me president. (The action of the verb changed "me".)

    Yes, I know that in some structures, indirect objects are not easy to pick out.

    Consider the very simple sentence: See Spot run. I would analyze that as subject (implied imperative "you") - verb (see) - Spot (indirect object) - direct object (bare infinitive "run"). Not everyone would analyze the sentence that way. Some support the theory that infinitives and participles can be the verbs in non-finite clauses and would make Spot the subject of that non-finite clause. I don't like that theory. A big problem is that if Spot were changed to "him", then an objective case pronoun would now be the subject of the clause. That crashes too many rules for me.

    Part of the problem in discussing structural grammar is the terminology. One person's conjunction is another person's function word. One person's objective complement is another person's resultative adjective. This is one reason that I choose to use the recognized parts of speech as a guide to my terminology. Otherwise we end up having a discussion about language in two different languages, with two different sets of vocabulary. One of the reasons that I like Reed-Kellogg is it forces us to think in terms of parts of speech and how they interact in the standard sentence: Subject - verb - object(s) + modifiers.

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