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Thread: How to diagram

  1. #11
    MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson1 View Post
    I suspected as much. In any case, we wait for the diagram.

    Actually, I should not leave it at that. Calling "that" a conjunction is a cop out. "That" is different. Sometimes linguists refer to the decay of the cases or gender, or something like that, referring to the way that languages have tended over time to become more simple. I believe that the same may be true for descriptive grammar. "That" is not like "other" conjunctions. Consider "dass" in German. But, if "that" so used must have a quick title, as a dictionary would tend to give, "conjunction" is not bad.
    But... the diagram?
    The cop out is "function word". "Conjunction" is a perfectly reasonable name for a word that conjoins two things.

  2. #12
    Sawsawxx is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: How to diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson1 View Post
    I am quite sure that according to Reed-Kellogg, the word "that" is never a conjunction. The word "if" certainly can be. "That" can be a relative pronoun, a demonstrative adjective, a demonstrative pronoun, or a "function" word, but not a conjunction. True, "funtion word" is not one of that practically sacred number of EIGHT parts of speech, but interjections are suspect in that they are not bound by syntax, and expletives are also a little different. But, if it comforts, one to think of this "that" in a group with "because, when, before, as," etc., then ok. It is simply not what Reed-Kellogg would say. And the original request was how to diagram it. This "that" has a very special job to to. It introduces noun clauses and does not need to be there.
    It seems you're not quite up-to-date with the developments in 21st-century grammar. There is actually no need for the category "conjunction" at all nowadays; it's replaced by the two distinct primary categories "subordinator" (formerly "subordinating conjunction") and "coordinator" (formerly "coordinating conjunction"). The most central members of the subordinator category are "that", "whether", and one use of "if" when it can be used in place of "whether", as in "I wonder whether/if she is OK". These words, which you call function words, are meaningless words whose role is to mark the clause they introduce as subordinate. By contrast, words like "because", "when", "before", and "as", traditionally viewed as conjunctions, are now analyzed as prepositions because they are not semantically empty markers of subordination; they have independent meaning and introduce head + dependent constructions.

  3. #13
    Sawsawxx is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: How to diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson1 View Post
    In any case, we wait for the diagram.

  4. #14
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: How to diagram

    True. I am not up-to-date. But, from what I have seen, there have been no improvements in descriptive grammar that make diagramming any better or more fun. Reed-Kellogg is amazingly complete that way. Within that system, "that" as a function word is diagrammed differently from coordinating or subordinating conjunctions, or "transitional adverbs", for that matter. But, regardless of what you choose to call "that", I keep returning to the start of this thread which asked about diagramming. Probably within other systems of diagramming this "that" can be treated much as a conjunction.
    "Preposition" within Reed-Kellogg is a word that begins a prepositional phrase, not one that begins a subordinate clause, and that matters greatly within the diagram of a sentence.
    The difference between the British terms and the traditional American terms is virtually always present within this forum. Perhaps that is what is going on.
    But... the diagram?
    Perhaps I will diagram this sentence as a short video on my Youtube channel. I should probably do that. Reed-Kellogg diagramming is awkward and a chore on a computer, but a joy on a blackboard

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    Default Re: How to diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson1 View Post
    True. I am not up-to-date. But, from what I have seen, there have been no improvements in descriptive grammar that make diagramming any better or more fun. Reed-Kellogg is amazingly complete that way. Within that system, "that" as a function word is diagrammed differently from coordinating or subordinating conjunctions, or "transitional adverbs", for that matter. But, regardless of what you choose to call "that", I keep returning to the start of this thread which asked about diagramming. Probably within other systems of diagramming this "that" can be treated much as a conjunction.
    "Preposition" within Reed-Kellogg is a word that begins a prepositional phrase, not one that begins a subordinate clause, and that matters greatly within the diagram of a sentence.
    The difference between the British terms and the traditional American terms is virtually always present within this forum. Perhaps that is what is going on.
    But... the diagram?
    Perhaps I will diagram this sentence as a short video on my Youtube channel. I should probably do that. Reed-Kellogg diagramming is awkward and a chore on a computer, but a joy on a blackboard
    I agree with you. New grammar theories develop all the time. Some stay, others go away. The Reed-Kellogg is excellent for teaching learners about how different parts of speech interact with each other in sentences. It will not cure cancer, but it serves a real purpose. I went to a Reed-Kellogg site to try to diagram the original sentence, but it refused to recognize the initial example as a full sentence. I agree that diagramming is more fun on a blackboard.

  6. #16
    Sawsawxx is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: How to diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson1 View Post
    But... the diagram?
    I submitted a diagram here and in another thread yesterday, but they went into moderation and never got approved. I'll try once more.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: How to diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by Sawsawxx View Post
    I submitted a diagram here and in another thread yesterday, but they went into moderation and never got approved. I'll try once more.
    Sorry. I don't know what happened there. I have now taken your first diagram out of moderation and deleted the (now unnecessary) second,

  8. #18
    Sawsawxx is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: How to diagram

    Thanks, 5jj. (Typo -- in the diagram the category for "able to do it" should be AdjP, not VP.)

  9. #19
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: How to diagram

    Very nicely done. Thanks.

    Today at some point I will diagram the sentence on Youtube. I will alert this forum when I have uploaded it.

    A very great difference between your system and Reed-Kellogg is all of the labeling. In R-K there is none. Everything is shown by the lines and the position of the parts. No doubt that is one of the reasons for its former great popularity. If you are unfamiliar with it, you may find it interesting. The sentence is very quickly done, once the syntax has been figured out, which, I believe is actually quite tricky because of the passive voice and the objective complement.

  10. #20
    Frank Antonson1 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: How to diagram

    Here is the link which will show you the Reed-Kellogg version of the sentence:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgNIG6QNBoY

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