[General] "An idea comes up"?

[ohmyrichard]

Dear teachers,

This morning right after I had two classes, my fellow teacher of English, who also had just had two periods, approached me and asked me about whether her understanding of the problem with a sentence in her student's piece of writing was correct. The sentence we discussed goes, "The idea to set up a company to offer more interactive events came up." In her view, the big problem with it is that the sentence is a top-heavy sentence. I agreed with her on this point, but I pointed out that the structure of "an idea to do something" used in this sentence is also incorrect. I said that I would use "the idea of doing something" instead. And I also said that I am not sure of the sentence structure of "An idea comes up.", used by this student, but that I am sure we can instead say in English "Someone comes up with an idea." or "Someone hits upon an idea." or "An idea comes to somebody or somebody's mind." Then I got my tablet computer connected to the Internet and after a lot of searching online found that my comments are correct. However, I failed to confirm the correctness of the structure of "An idea comes up." or prove its incorrectness. Would you please tell me whether you native speakers of English say "An idea comes up." to mean that suddenly an idea occurs to someone?

Thanks a lot.
Richard

 

[Gillnetter]

Dear teachers,

This morning right after I had two classes, my fellow teacher of English, who also had just had two periods, approached me and asked me about whether her understanding of the problem with a sentence in her student's piece of writing was correct. The sentence we discussed goes, "The idea to set up a company to offer more interactive events came up." In her view, the big problem with it is that the sentence is a top-heavy sentence. I agreed with her on this point, but I pointed out that the structure of "an idea to do something" used in this sentence is also incorrect. I said that I would use "the idea of doing something" instead. And I also said that I am not sure of the sentence structure of "An idea comes up.", used by this student, but that I am sure we can instead say in English "Someone comes up with an idea." or "Someone hits upon an idea." or "An idea comes to somebody or somebody's mind." Then I got my tablet computer connected to the Internet and after a lot of searching online found that my comments are correct. However, I failed to confirm the correctness of the structure of "An idea comes up." or prove its incorrectness. Would you please tell me whether you native speakers of English say "An idea comes up." to mean that suddenly an idea occurs to someone?

Thanks a lot.
Richard

"An idea comes up" doesn't have to mean that the idea was sudden. One would have to determine how ideas are truly formed. Do ideas "pop" into a mind or are they the result of much reflection? By the way, the manner is which you used "periods" in your first sentence led me to believe that both you and your fellow teacher had just went through two menstrual cycles. In AmE the word "period" can mean a menstrual cycle. It would be clearer if you wrote that she just taught two periods

 

[Tdol]

Would you please tell me whether you native speakers of English say "An idea comes up." to mean that suddenly an idea occurs to someone?

I wouldn't use it, but wouldn't be troubled if someone did. It wouldn't necessarily mean that it was sudden, but I'd be more likely to think it did. You could use an idea cropped up.

 

[ohmyrichard]

I wouldn't use it, but wouldn't be troubled if someone did. It wouldn't necessarily mean that it was sudden, but I'd be more likely to think it did. You could use an idea cropped up.

Thanks, Tdol.
So, you mean that you as a native speaker of English do not say "An idea comes up." but that you would instead use "An idea crops up."?

 

[ohmyrichard]

"An idea comes up" doesn't have to mean that the idea was sudden. One would have to determine how ideas are truly formed. Do ideas "pop" into a mind or are they the result of much reflection? By the way, the manner is which you used "periods" in your first sentence led me to believe that both you and your fellow teacher had just went through two menstrual cycles. In AmE the word "period" can mean a menstrual cycle. It would be clearer if you wrote that she just taught two periods

Thanks for your "teach two periods" suggestion.
So, you mean that "an idea pops into a mind" means that the idea is sudden while "An idea comes up." may not have this meaning, right? And do you mean that "An idea comes up." is used by native speakers of English? Thanks.

 

[Tdol]

Thanks, Tdol.
So, you mean that you as a native speaker of English do not say "An idea comes up." but that you would instead use "An idea crops up."?

I'd be much more likely to say that someone came up with an idea.

 

[ohmyrichard]

I'd be much more likely to say that someone came up with an idea.

Yes, I agree with you. And this is what I told my fellow teacher. Thanks, Tdol.

 

[Barb_D]

Please note no one said that it was WRONG. They only stated a preference for expressing that idea differently.

If that student came here and said "I was marked down for this. Is it wrong?" we would say "No, it's not wrong. It's not the most natural way to say it, but it's not wrong."

 

[ohmyrichard]

Please note no one said that it was WRONG. They only stated a preference for expressing that idea differently.

If that student came here and said "I was marked down for this. Is it wrong?" we would say "No, it's not wrong. It's not the most natural way to say it, but it's not wrong."

Thank you, Barb. You gave me something great!

 

[Raymott]

"An idea came up at the meeting." is not unnatural to me. Nor is, "He came up with an idea".
It does sound strange in the present tense though.

 

[ohmyrichard]

"An idea came up at the meeting." is not unnatural to me. Nor is, "He came up with an idea".
It does sound strange in the present tense though.

Hi, Raymott. In English teaching or any language teaching, we teachers of languages tend to generalize--that is, we language teachers often extract sentence patterns from a particular sentence or more particular sentences. For example, when I see the sentence of "the idea to set up a company to offer more interactive events came up" in my student's essay handed in to me for a grade, I will surely respond this way: I say to myself, "'the idea to do something' is wrong. This is something I am sure of. But do native speakers of English say 'An idea comes up'? I have no idea whether they use it or not. I shall consult my dictionaries or 'Ask a Teacher' on the website of www.usingenglish.com." When I want to conduct my English teaching in a heuristic way, I will also ask my students, "Do native speakers of English say 'An idea comes up'?" However, this does not necessarily mean that this sentence pattern will be used in the simple present in real communication, either in writing or speech. What I here in this kind of situation actually want to know or want my students to know is whether in English "an idea" can take "come up" as its main verb or whether native English speakers say only "an idea comes to someone", not "an idea comes up", when the subject is "an idea" or "the idea".


Having said that, I instantly think of this: in a fairy tale or when we are writing a playscript, it seems that we can use the sentence in the present tense.

 

[Raymott]

Hi, Raymott. In English teaching or any language teaching, we teachers of languages tend to generalize--that is, we language teachers often extract sentence patterns from a particular sentence or more particular sentences. For example, when I see the sentence of "the idea to set up a company to offer more interactive events came up" in my student's essay handed in to me for a grade, I will surely respond this way: I say to myself, "'the idea to do something' is wrong. This is something I am sure of. But do native speakers of English say 'An idea comes up'? I have no idea whether they use it or not. I shall consult my dictionaries or 'Ask a teacher' on the website of www.usingenglish.com." When I want to conduct my English teaching in a heuristic way, I will also ask my students, "Do native speakers of English say 'An idea comes up'?" However, this does not necessarily mean that this sentence pattern will be used in the simple present in real communication, either in writing or speech. What I here in this kind of situation actually want to know or want my students to know is whether in English "an idea" can take "come up" as its main verb or whether native English speakers say "an idea comes to someone" when the subject is "an idea" or "the idea".


Having said that, I instantly think of this: in a fairy tale or when we are writing a playscript, it seems that we can use the sentence in the present tense.

I agree with the others who say that "An idea comes up" is not commonly heard (I've never heard it). But the version in the past tense is heard, and sounds natural. No, a native speaker would not say "An idea comes up".
I can only repeat again that "An idea came up" is common, while "An idea comes up" is not. You can infer from this that ideas can "come up" as long as you're not using the present tense.
You can also say, Maybe an idea will come up before tomorrow."
So, yes, you can use the phrasal verb "come up" with "an idea".

 

[ohmyrichard]

I agree with the others who say that "An idea comes up" is not commonly heard (I've never heard it). But the version in the past tense is heard, and sounds natural. No, a native speaker would not say "An idea comes up".
I can only repeat again that "An idea came up" is common, while "An idea comes up" is not. You can infer from this that ideas can "come up" as long as you're not using the present tense.
You can also say, Maybe an idea will come up before tomorrow."
So, yes, you can use the phrasal verb "come up" with "an idea".

Thanks for your reply. However, to be frank, you did not read my last post carefully. I said in it that language teachers often generalize, that my focus is on whether the subject of "an idea" or "the idea" can take "come up" as its main verb in the sentence, and that my focus is not on whether "an idea or the idea comes up" can be used in the present tense. I think I have explained everything, but it is a pity that you still misunderstand me. Hope you will read carefully in the future.

That said, you have solved my problem. I now know from your replies that we "can use the phrasal verb 'come up' with 'an idea' as you said at the end of your last post. Thanks for it.

 

[MikeNewYork]

I agree with the others who say that "An idea comes up" is not commonly heard (I've never heard it). But the version in the past tense is heard, and sounds natural. No, a native speaker would not say "An idea comes up".
I can only repeat again that "An idea came up" is common, while "An idea comes up" is not. You can infer from this that ideas can "come up" as long as you're not using the present tense.
You can also say, Maybe an idea will come up before tomorrow."
So, yes, you can use the phrasal verb "come up" with "an idea".

I disagree. It would not be uncommon to hear: Sometimes a good idea comes up in a brainstorming session. If the past tense works, the present tense is not that strange, depending on context.

 

[ohmyrichard]

I disagree. It would not be uncommon to hear: Sometimes a good idea comes up in a brainstorming session. If the past tense works, the present tense is not that strange, depending on context.

Indeed as the saying goes, to err is human. We all make mistakes. When we focus on some aspects of an issue, we may neglect others unintentionally. It seems that we cannot concentrate too much and overthink. Your sentence of "Sometimes a good idea comes up in a brainstorming session." is a good example, which I failed to think of. Thanks a lot.

 

[5jj]

Your sentence of "Sometimes a good idea comes up in a brainstorming session." is a good example, which Raymott and I failed to think of.

I don't think we can assume that Raymott 'failed to think of' this.

 

[Raymott]

Thanks for your reply. However, to be frank, you did not read my last post carefully.
[...]
That said, you have solved my problem. I now know from your replies that we "can use the phrasal verb 'come up' with 'an idea' as you said at the end of your last post. Thanks for it.

I did read your post carefully; I'm not sure whether you're in a position to say how carefully I read it. I believe I understood your question.
Not every question can answered with "Yes' or 'No'. It's no coincidence that my reply helped you solve the problem.

Anyhow, you probably don't need to worry too much about how carefully I read your posts in the near future.

 

[ohmyrichard]

I don't think we can assume that Raymott 'failed to think of' this.

Sorry for that. I will change the end of the sentence to "which I failed to think of".
Anyway, what do you think of MikeNewYork's sentence of "Sometimes a good idea comes up in a brainstorming session.", which is in the present tense?

 

[ohmyrichard]

I did read your post carefully; I'm not sure whether you're in a position to say how carefully I read it. I believe I understood your question.
Not every question can answered with "Yes' or 'No'. It's no coincidence that my reply helped you solve the problem.

Anyhow, you probably don't need to worry too much about how carefully I read your posts in the near future.

Hi, Raymott. Please forgive me for my impoliteness. I thought you might have neglected the particular teaching situations part of my elaboration. Thanks a lot again for helping me to solve this language issue. BTW, would you please tell me what you think of MikeNewYork's sentence of "Sometimes a good idea comes up in a brainstorming session.", which is in the present tense? Thanks.

 

[Raymott]

Hi, Raymott. Please forgive me for my impoliteness. I thought you might have neglected the particular teaching situations part of my elaboration. Thanks a lot again for helping me to solve this language issue. BTW, would you please tell me what you think of MikeNewYork's sentence of "Sometimes a good idea comes up in a brainstorming session.", which is in the present tense. Thanks.

Mike's sentence is fine.