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  1. #121
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Risby
    I make it 9:23 am but my watch may be a little slow.
    My reply: Are you defining "9:23 am", or your watch, or "a little bit slow"?

    What is the present time? Did you mention "is"or "the present time" at all?

    You have a good sense of humor, but not of time.

  2. #122
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by riverkid
    You really have this backassward, Shun. Nobody has used 'habit' to explain the present. It's only a name of a form of a verb that we use to denote habitual actions; I brush my teeth; I sometimes watch TV; I eat sushi 3 times per week.

    These are all things that are done habitually and the habitual meaning can only be described by using the FORM, the present simple tense.
    My reply: Do you mean "things that are done habitually" cannot be regarded as Habit? I am afraid you have an incorrect way of defining things. What will you call "I brush my teeth"? Is it a habit or a habitual action?

    To be fair, people do use 'habit' to explain Simple Present:
    Present tenses
    Simple present (or simply "present"): "I listen." For many verbs, this is used to express habit or ability ("I play the guitar").
    == http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar
    I use Habit to stand for those which grammars use to describe the use of Simple Present, like Habitual Action, Routine, General Truth, Repeated Action, Permanency, etc. Are you sure we must use only "habitual action" to refer to Simple Present, instead of all other callings? Or will you insist that Simple Present denotes only habitual action, but not routine, nor General Truth, not Permanency?

    Between Habit and Habitual Action, you are word-playing. If your sense of definition is that good, please try to define "present time". Maybe your wordplay is the best you can do to bypass its definition.

    Most important, our examples are referring to the same kind of examples, like "I brush my teeth". We just use a calling to refer to all such examples. Must they be called only "habitual action"?

    Actually, it is the sentence that expresses "habitual action, routine, or repeated action, or things that are done habitually". When the sentence denotes a Habit, various tenses also denote a habit, indicating different parts of time. If you have a habit "I brush my teeth", wouldn't Present Perfect "I have just brushed my teeth" be a habitual action also?

    Actually, it is the sentence that expresses a meaning. As in the quoted example from wikipedia.org above, since the author takes up a Simple Present sentence that expresses ability "I play the guitar", he adds that the tense expresses also ability. How can you deny the expression of ability? You can't, because Simple Present can "express" any meanings.

    People have always confused a sentence with a tense. And this is why they cannot define "the present time". They include you, of course.

    Did you notice a correspondent here and I had discussed and concluded we use past tense, rather than present tense, to say past habitual actions? Will you add any different opinion?



  3. #123
    MrPedantic is offline Moderator
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by shun
    If your sense of definition is that good, please try to define "present time". Maybe your wordplay is the best you can do to bypass its definition.
    Quote Originally Posted by shun
    People have always confused a sentence with a tense. And this is why they cannot define "the present time". They include you, of course.
    Shun

    Please refrain from directing unpleasant comments at the people who are trying to help you.

    They create an unfriendly atmosphere and do nothing to further the discussion.

    Many thanks,

    MrP

  4. #124
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPedantic
    Please refrain from directing unpleasant comments at the people who are trying to help you.
    They create an unfriendly atmosphere and do nothing to further the discussion.
    My reply: My words are responding Riverkid's "You really have this backassward, Shun". Did you remind him of the friendly atmosphere?

  5. #125
    MrPedantic is offline Moderator
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Hello Shun

    I've sent you a PM, which will give you a little more background.

    I look forward to reading your further comments on the definition of "future time".

    All the best,

    MrP

  6. #126
    riverkid is offline Banned
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by shun View Post
    My reply: My words are responding Riverkid's "You really have this backassward, Shun". Did you remind him of the friendly atmosphere?
    Maybe you misunderstood, Shun. 'backassward' means nothing more than reversed or mixed up.

    ++++++++++++++++

    http://psy.otago.ac.nz/r_oshea/FUN%20STUFF/slang.html#B

    back assward a. (Intentional Spoonerism of ass backward) Reversed {arse about Charlie}. (s.a. bass ackward).

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Quote Originally Posted by shun View Post
    [FONT=Verdana]
    My reply: Do you mean "things that are done habitually" cannot be regarded as Habit? I am afraid you have an incorrect way of defining things. What will you call "I brush my teeth"? Is it a habit or a habitual action?

    It can easily be both. Grammatically, in English, it tells us of habitual action.

    To be fair, people do use 'habit' to explain Simple Present:

    I use Habit to stand for those which grammars use to describe the use of Simple Present, like Habitual Action, Routine, General Truth, Repeated Action, Permanency, etc. Are you sure we must use only "habitual action" to refer to Simple Present, instead of all other callings? Or will you insist that Simple Present denotes only habitual action, but not routine, nor General Truth, not Permanency?

    No, you're right. We use the present simple tense FORM for all those things you've mentioned [OR you mentioned].

    Between Habit and Habitual Action, you are word-playing. If your sense of definition is that good, please try to define "present time". Maybe your wordplay is the best you can do to bypass its definition.

    If you're so set on a definition, define it yourself and then show us how it is used in relation to the various tense FORMS.

    Most important, our examples are referring to the same kind of examples, like "I brush my teeth". We just use a calling to refer to all such examples. Must they be called only "habitual action"?

    No, noted above.

    Actually, it is the sentence that expresses "habitual action, routine, or repeated action, or things that are done habitually". When the sentence denotes a Habit, various tenses also denote a habit, indicating different parts of time. If you have a habit "I brush my teeth", wouldn't Present Perfect "I have just brushed my teeth" be a habitual action also?

    NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT! "I have just brushed my teeth" does NOT describe an habitual action.

    Actually, it is the sentence that expresses a meaning. As in the quoted example from wikipedia.org above, since the author takes up a Simple Present sentence that expresses ability "I play the guitar", he adds that the tense expresses also ability. How can you deny the expression of ability? You can't, because Simple Present can "express" any meanings.

    You're seizing on a mistake to buttress your position. There is nothing inherent in "I play the guitar" that tells us of any ability. If that were so we could do without 'can/good at/ proficient/etc.

    The guitarist in question may well be terrible. All it tells us is that that person makes a habit of playing the guitar.


    People have always confused a sentence with a tense. And this is why they cannot define "the present time". They include you, of course.

    Did you notice a correspondent here and I had discussed and concluded we use past tense, rather than present tense, to say past habitual actions? Will you add any different opinion?

    No, I didn't notice, Shun. If you'd like me to comment on that in particular then you'll have to quote the dialogue involved.

    But there is nothing remarkable about that. Habitual actions can most certainly end and when they do, they are no longer habitual actions that can be described by the present simple tense FORM. So of course, it makes perfect sense that language would have a way to discuss past habitual actions.

    When "He lives in Tokyo" is no longer the case, that habitual action/routine/general truth cannot continue to be described by "He lives in Tokyo", ie. the present simple tense FORM.

    Now we can use, "He used to live in Tokyo" or even "He lived in Tokyo".


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    Last edited by riverkid; 27-Sep-2006 at 05:31.

  7. #127
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by riverkid
    When "He lives in Tokyo" is no longer the case, that habitual action/routine/general truth cannot continue to be described by "He lives in Tokyo", ie. the present simple tense FORM.
    Now we can use, "He used to live in Tokyo" or even "He lived in Tokyo".
    My reply: That is what I want to tell you. Our past discussion you missed has arrived that past habit is expressed by Simple Past, as in your excellent example "He lived in Tokyo". If you had been there, it would have saved us a lot of trouble. Even "used to" is past form, I hope you would agree. In any forum, nevertheless, it would take me quite a time to convince readers Simple Past is used to express past habit. Though you can see the logic and examples so easily, some don't.

    Mind you, it follows that Simple Present can express only present habitual action. Unfortunately, in explaining Simple Present, many grammars have forgot the important time notion: present. It is quite misleading to many readers.

    But if different tenses express different parts of the habitual action, is tense related to the habitual action at all? You should think about that. If we compare tenses, it doesn't take deep thinking for anyone to see tense has nothing to do with habitual action.

    --------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by riverkid
    NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT! "I have just brushed my teeth" does NOT describe an habitual action.
    My reply: Now you have avoided talking of time, very unfortunately. No one tense is actually used to indicate a habitual action. As for describing, however, any tense can describe anything, if disregarding the element of time.

    How absurd it is! If brushing teeth is our habitual action, then after finishing a case of it, we deny it is an habitual action, simply by using Present Perfect? It doesn't make any sense. Doesn't a habitual action include every time of doing it? If we don't count the habitual actions in the past -- with Present Perfect, do we have a habitual action at all?

    I assume you must be also arguing that "I am smoking cigarette" also does NOT describe a habitual action, mustn't you? This is why I have jokingly promised one can quit smoking instantly: Smoke it now!! As you are smoking, because of the tense, it is not regarded as a habit. Isn't it easy to quite the habitual smoking?

    Likewise, after you have finished smoking, admit "I have just smoked". Because of the tense, again, it is NOT a habit/habitual action anymore. NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT! Isn't it easy to quite smoking?

    What I mean is, using tense to judge whether it is a Habit or not, is illogical and impossible. Using tense this way is to preach false statements (denying a habit).

    Oh, by the way, my friend John doesn't have the habit of smoking, because he has been smoking for half the century. But as I don't say it in Simple Present or Simple Past, I do not describe a habit/habitual action, do I? We are not sure if "he smokes" at all, are we?

    ------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by riverkid
    There is nothing inherent in "I play the guitar" that tells us of any ability.
    My reply: Wordplay again: "Inherent". What is the standard of being "inherent"? As I say, people will not use Time to explain tense anymore. If any problem, one will promptly adopt Meanings like "inherent".

    To any audience, "I play the guitar" does indicate an ability. If you now introduce a new standard of being "inherent", then I must point out, in your words: There is nothing inherent in "I brush my teeth" that tells us of any Habit.

    I don't think you can find a substantial way to prove "I play the guitar" doesn't say an ability. However, should you find out the way, I will use your exact words to prove that "I brush my teeth" doesn't express habitual action. Will you try?

    I don't think the author from wikipedia.org has less understanding of Simple Present than you do. However, the confusion is the same. English grammars do have a confusion between sentence and tense.
    If you can see the tense in "I brush my teeth" expresses a habitual action,
    can't you see the sentence in "I brush my teeth" also expresses a habitual action?
    Can't you see the conventional way of explaining tense will always be eclipsed by the sentence? With only one sentence and one tense, you can't never prove whether it is the sentence or the tense that expresses a Meaning.

    This is why I have designed a method to avoid the role of the sentence. I put different tenses together, without displaying their sentences:
    Ex: <in 1997 + Simple Past> + Present Perfect + Simple Present + Simple Past
    == The leading Simple Past is used because of "in 1997". It happens within 1997.
    Present Perfect indicates the action finished outside 1997, in the nameless time span between 1997 and Now.
    Simple Present indicates the action is outside 1997 and continues up to the present.
    The latter Simple Past indicates it happens within the same timeframe of the former Simple Past. Only can Simple Past indicate a link to a former action.

    This sentence-free method compares the three tenses all at once, and gets rid of the interference of the Meanings from sentences. As above, I use Time alone to explain tense. I am the one who keeps to the agreement that tense is used to express Time, while others are breaking the agreement without hesitation, once they meet a problem in explaining tense.


  8. #128
    MrPedantic is offline Moderator
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by shun View Post
    My reply: That is what I want to tell you. Our past discussion you missed has arrived that past habit is expressed by Simple Past, as in your excellent example "He lived in Tokyo". If you had been there, it would have saved us a lot of trouble. Even "used to" is past form, I hope you would agree. In any forum, nevertheless, it would take me quite a time to convince readers Simple Past is used to express past habit. Though you can see the logic and examples so easily, some don't.
    It seems to me that the implication of "habit" in "He lived in Tokyo" resides in the meaning of the verb "to live", rather than the choice of tense.

    Compare:

    1. He walked to the shops.
    2. She ate baked beans garnished with finely grated mozzarella.
    3. He caught a bus to Clapham Junction.

    Without further context, these suggest "a particular incident", rather than "a habitual occurrence". But the contrary is true of the simple present tense.

    MrP

  9. #129
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Go to yahoo now and you will see today's main news points:
    Baghdad shut down on suspicion of attack
    Israel completes pullout from Lebanon
    No sign of survivors from Brazil plane
    Afghanistan mulls herbicide in drug war
    Scalia begins third decade on Supreme Court
    Laura Bush hosts National Book Festival
    Officials explore turning humidity into drinking water

    Simple Present also suggests "a particular incident", rather than "a habitual occurrence". Its indication is simply "the present time", if we know what is the definition of the present time.


  10. #130
    Philly is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by shun View Post
    I am the one who keeps to the agreement that tense is used to express Time
    Just out of curiosity, which agreement are you referring to, Shun?
    .

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