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  1. #21
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

    How about past time?

    Can we define past time?

  2. #22
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

    I don't know, but I think it may help us to define future time if we know how to define past time.

  3. #23
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

    PHP Code:
    Ohhow convenient a logic here isYour logic is, as my question was vague at the beginningit must be still vague until nowA remarkable reasoning.
    As 
    they have been discussing my questionthey still didn't even know my 'point'? I would not hint that if I were you. The joke is more on them than on me. 
    First, I did not mean anything offensive, you inferred the wrong meaning of what I was trying to say. My answer was neutral, I was simply replying to your statement. Anyway, this can be regarded as of no importance.
    PHP Code:
    Those readers who are before you haven't missed the point, which is about the future time, rather than the future action. 

    Secondly, I did say imagine the highway with cars, cars being the time, as in the concept. I did not describe it more thoroughly, to me it made sense because I understand it in my own way. Things do happen in the future, things that cannot be predicted by anyone because they have not happened, yet. Then, can future action have some relation to future time?


    And, I couldn't agree more with the following;
    PHP Code:
    This extremely illogical riposte is stunningWhen a student asks "How do we use Simple Present tense?"you may award to him or her the same wisdom"You obviously have an idea of what the Simple Present tense is, and unless you ask the right question that can be answered, how can people understand what you mean. You ask in Simple Present tense, how comes you don't know the Simple Present tense?" 

  4. #24
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by incognittum
    Would you like to chat through an instant messanger?


    Have seen the private message. If the definition is correct, it must be very short and instant. Embarrassed, I don't know how to use what-you-called instant messenger and I am an old dog that fails new trick.

    --------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by incognittum
    Things do happen in the future,.....


    I have asked for the definition of "the future", but you are always giving me, here again, things about the future. Future time and future things are different and I think that, if you pardon me, you haven't stayed on the subject steadily. As you say "Things do happen in the future", you have presupposed I know what is future. I still can't get the definition of "future time" even after you have chatted to me, in a fastest way, a thousand times of "future things".

    --------------------
    On the other hand, here is how we stay on our subject of time:
    If you say "in two hours" is future, it is within today.
    If you say "tomorrow" is future, it is within this week.
    If you say "next week" is future, it is within this month.
    If you say "next month" is future, it is within this year.
    If you say "next year" is future, it is within this decade.
    If you say "next decade" is future, it is within this century.
    If you say "next century" is future, it is within this millennium.
    If you say "next millennium" is future, it is within this biggest present time possible.

    The contrasts above are enough for us to achieve an instant definition for "future time".

    Would your next line be the definition of future time? Or another wandering future thing?

    --------------------
    If you scroll down this page you may see there is a past subject: "Do we have future tense?"

    Here is the exact link:
    http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/te...ure-tense.html

    If we cannot define future time, we don't know whether we have Future Tense or not. That is to say, we jump to the conclusion that we don't have Future Tense, just because we cannot define future time. A very long premature jump.

    --------------------
    Down this page there is also another old subject: "Is Yesterday a past time?"

    Here is the exact link:
    http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ge...past-time.html

    I am afraid the problem has not been solved yet. As there are new Yesterdays in the future, why would we call Yesterday a past time?

    You work yesterday, you work today, and you work tomorrow. Will you regard the work as past? I don't think so.

    Similarly, as we have Yesterday yesterday, have Yesterday today, have Yesterday tomorrow, and have Yesterday forever, why will we regard Yesterday as past?

    --------------------
    The conclusion deduced from above is very simple to me, we can't even define what is past, present, or future. But there must be the definitions somewhere, as far as I know. But where?

    Perhaps, however, the answer has already been in "Do we have future tense?":
    Quote Originally Posted by tdol
    However, having been through and seen this argument time and time again, I think of it as more a question of faith\belief, rather than logic.

    So, your chatting messenger should be connected to Tdol's.

  5. #25
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

    Can the instant messenger deliver the following echelons?

    (1) The future time is within the present time:
    "In two hours" is future time, but it is within today.
    "Tomorrow" is future time, but it is within this week.
    "Next month" is future time, but it is within this year.
    "Next decade" is future time, but it is within this century.

    (2) On the other hand, the present time can be also within the future time:
    "This minute" is present time, but it is within "the coming hour".
    "Today" is present time, but it is within "the coming week".
    "This month" is present time, but it is within "the coming year"
    "This decade" is the present time, but it is within "the coming century".

    Note to point (2):
    -- If today is Wednesday, "the coming week" is from this Wednesday to next Wednesday. That is to say, it connects to the present, though it refers to a future week and thus a future time. It is different from "this week", a present time, which spans from Sunday to Saturday, and Wednesday is within it.
    -- Obviously, "the coming week" is also different from "next week", though both are future time.
    -- The same explanation applies to "the coming minute/hour/week/year/century/etc."
    -- Therefore, "this minute", a present time, is within "the coming hour", a future time.

    If we combine (1) and (2) above, the conclusion can be the future time is overlapped with the present time, actually seamlessly. In other words, as can be said, future time and present time are the same. You cannot separate future time completely from the present time.

    If this conclusion sounds odd to you, the story doesn't end here. Shape the reality you know to the rest of the story.

  6. #26
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

    In our discussion, "in two hours" can be regarded as future time. If one argues it is within today, our repost will be that today is within the coming week, so today is part of a future time, which cannot nullify the futurity of "in two hours".

    That is to say, whatever the time, whether it is future or present is grammatically up to our choice. Isn't "today" itself compatible with the Future Tense, as in the following example?
    Ex: Today will be a rainy day.

    The unavoidable question is, if the future time equals the present time, why will human beings keep the two kinds of time? The answer is, our present/future notions are on the actions, rather than on time. A present action is different from a future action. The former is a certain action, expressed in present tenses, while the latter an uncertain action, expressed in Future Tense. This is the logic of the Future Tense. After all, Future Tense does have a logic, disappointing Tdol's observation.

    The criterion of the Future Tense, in view of old grammars, is whether future time or not:
    1. The simple future tense is used to express an action that has still to take place. It is also used to indicate a future event that is part of a plan or arrangement
    == http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/lang/Burhan/99.html

    2. SIMPLE FUTURE TENSE
    The future is used to express an action which will occur at a later time.
    == http://www.james.rtsq.qc.ca/Virtgram/futtheor.htm

    3. What are you doing tomorrow night? Next week? This weekend?
    We use the future tense to answer these questions. The future tense describes actions that occur in the future.
    == http://tribes.tribe.net/freeuniversity/thread/5dd135e1-c9b9-417c-af45-00fb2ef3062d

    4. The FUTURE TENSE indicates that an action is in the future relative to the speaker or writer.
    == http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/tenses/simple_future.htm

    They don't mention the uncertain aspect of the tense, and this will lead to the doubt of its existence.

    Our criterion, on the other hand, should be whether certain or uncertain. If uncertain, even a present action can be described in Future Tense:
    Ex: John will be in his office now.

    If the action is certain, however, even a so-called future action is described in present tenses, Simple Present or Present Progressive:
    Ex: We go to Europe tomorrow/next weekend.
    Ex: We are going to Europe tomorrow/next weekend.
    == Just because there is Future Tense that indicates an uncertainty, here we use present tenses to throw a contrast with it, saying it is a certainty, even with a future time. Nevertheless, these examples have been mistaken as an evidence to prove there is no Future Tense, very unfortunately. Because the old erroneous criterion on Future Tense is whether future time or not, these examples exercise a denial to the existence of the Future Tense.

    All modal auxiliary verbs function as the Future Tense. I would not say the proofs would be easy. But the process to the conclusion can be put into logic, as I have done it many times before.

  7. #27
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

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    Have seen the private message. If the definition is correctit must be very short and instantEmbarrassedI don't know how to use what-you-called instant messenger and I am an old dog that fails new trick. 
    :) On the contrary, you "can" teach an old dog new tricks! Instead of an e-mail type slower-feedback, we could communicate much faster where both are present at each end of network through a program called an instant messanger. I would not call a post to a thread instant, regardless of how fast it takes to get to the other end, because one has to wait certain amount of time for a feed-back when the other is absent and is unable to reply.
    I believe Future Tense, an action, can be within present time, it depends to what and how big a part of time you are referring to; a week or a month. You refer to "today" as being the present time and a Future Tense action can take place within that.
    As to whether a future time exists within the present time, that depends on individual imagination.
    PHP Code:
    If we combine (1) and (2abovethe conclusion can be the future time is overlapped with the present timeactually seamlesslyIn other words, as can be saidfuture time and present time are the sameYou cannot separate future time completely from the present time
    Of course you cannot separate present from future time, but they are not the same. Time is a one thing, but we can put pauses between the past, present, and future time. It depends to what big of a piece of time you refer to, for example; if you refer to a minute as being the present time, anything after that will be the future time. Also, if you refer to present time as being 1,000 years, anything beyond that is future time.
    Can we agree that past, present or future time can be consisted of a minute, an hour or a year? And Past Tense, Present Tense or Future Tense have their specific action that took, is taking, will or is going to take place within the time? Can this be the difference between future action and future time?
    Which in turn would give you a definition of what future time is.
    PHP Code:
    That is to saywhatever the timewhether it is future or present is grammatically up to our choiceIsn't "today" itself compatible with the Future Tense, as in the following example?
    Ex: Today will be a rainy day. 
    Today already happened, because you use the sentence while you exist within this time, that is "today", therefore it is the present time as the whole part that you're refering to. It will not rain constantly within this day, because if it did you can't write the sentence like that. If its constantly raining througout the day and you exist within it at a present time, then it can't be classified as future.
    So, here we are refering to an action that is part of a different time and will happen at some point during the "day". I am talking about a 'day' and not "today". It does not have to rain constantly to be classified as a rainy day. "Today" we would refer to a specific time, a big part of time, and an action like rain could happen during the day time, anytime. Today is 24 hours and a day can be from dawn till dusk. To conclude, "will be a rainy day" is part of Future Tense, but you cannot include today as a whole to be part of future, unless you broke it to pieces and refered to hours, which would be a different time altogether. Today can't be, but a day can.
    PHP Code:
    Even a present action can be described in Future Tense:
    ExJohn will be in his office now
    Maybe The Future Tense is described in present action?
    If he is going to be in his office then how can he be there right this instant. Maybe the sentence is formed incorrectly, or "now" is refering to a certain amount of time as in a minute. He will be coming within this minute which would be considered as present time "now", not The Present Tense.
    PHP Code:
    If the action is certainhowevereven a so-called future action is described in present tensesSimple Present or Present Progressive:
    ExWe go to Europe tomorrow/next weekend
    Isn't the above shortened for; we are going to go to Europe tomorrow/next weekend, which would state that something will take place, a future action in a future time. The meaning changes about "we are" when you relate to future and present. When you say "we are", you are refering to present, because you exist now. When you say that "we are going to go tomorrow", and when that future time happens and becomes the present, you are going to Europe.

  8. #28
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

    After hearing what you have said here, I am glad I don't have the chatting messenger. I find your message is pointless. What you are saying is no more than a mother is a woman. What I mean is, there is nothing inside. Seeing is believing.

    For instance, you have put many words into my example expressing an uncertainty:
    Ex: John will be in his office now.
    Quote Originally Posted by incognittum
    Maybe The Future Tense is described in present action? If he is going to be in his office then how can he be there right this instant. Maybe the sentence is formed incorrectly, or "now" is refering to a certain amount of time as in a minute. He will be coming within this minute which would be considered as present time "now", not The Present Tense.

    How on earth can anyone discuss with a message with so many "Maybe"? You have done nothing but supporting my example is expressing an uncertainty.

    -------------------------
    I have already proven my points:
    1. The future time is overlapped with the present time.
    2. The criterion of using Future Tense is not because of future time, but uncertainty.

    I have not found anything in your message that contradicts my points.

    ------------------------
    My suggestion:
    It was time for you to explain why Yesterday is past time.

  9. #29
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

    You said to my example:
    Ex: Today will be a rainy day.
    Quote Originally Posted by incognittum
    Today already happened, because you use the sentence while you exist within this time, that is "today", therefore it is the present time as the whole part that you're refering to. It will not rain constantly within this day, because if it did you can't write the sentence like that.

    What you have said here is exactly what I meant. So, what is the point in describing the details of my example?

  10. #30
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    Re: How would you define the future time?

    Quote Originally Posted by incognittum
    To conclude, "will be a rainy day" is part of Future Tense...

    Wrong conclusion. A tense is a form that happens only to the verb, here "will be", not "will be a rainy day".

    Please be informed that "will be a rainy day" is part of the sentence.

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