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  1. #1
    dihen is offline Member
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    Default "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    I noticed that many native speakers use "where" for "in which", "on which", and else with nouns that are like a place or situation? But would they ever replace it with "that" or just "which", or "that" with preposition stranding?
    `
    like these:
    `
    "a situation in which you don't know what to do" (the most correct)
    "a situation where you don't know what to do" (seems to be common?)
    "a situation that you don't know what to do in" (less common?)
    "a situation that you don't know what to do" (even less common, and sounds foreign?)
    `
    "a language in which adjectives precede the noun" (the most correct)
    "a language where adjectives precede the noun" (less common, but doesn't sound foreign?)
    "in English, which adjectives precede the noun in" (less common, and sounds foreign?)
    "in English, which adjectives precede the noun" (even less common, and sounds foreign?)
    "a language that adjectives precede the noun" (even less common, and sounds foreign?)
    "a language that adjectives precede the noun in" (less common, and sounds foreign?)
    Last edited by dihen; 27-May-2006 at 12:16.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    Here are my picks. Note that, I've used the symbol to mean awkward or not OK.
    `
    "a situation where you don't know what to do"
    Unless, ... in a situation where ...

    "a situation that you don't know what to do in" (less common?)
    "a situation that you don't know what to do" (even less common, and sounds foreign?)

    "a language where adjectives precede the noun" (less common, but doesn't sound foreign?)
    Unless, ... in a language where ...

    "in English, which adjectives precede the noun in"

    "a language that adjectives precede the noun"
    "a language that adjectives precede the noun in"

  3. #3
    dihen is offline Member
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    Default Re: "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    This, "a program that dogs are trained in" seems to be possible. Is it? Besides that, which words do native speakers often use preposition-strand with? I know it's common to use preposition-stranding, but does using it in certain constructions still sound foreign?

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    Default Re: "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    Doesn't "trained in" function as a phrasal verb?

    Here's something that may interest you: Preposition-stranding.

    All the best.

  5. #5
    dihen is offline Member
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    Default Re: "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    Here are my picks. Note that, I've used the symbol :down: to mean awkward or not OK.
    `
    "a situation where you don't know what to do" :down:
    Unless, ... in a situation where ... :up:
    `
    "a situation that you don't know what to do in" (less common?):down:
    "a situation that you don't know what to do" (even less common, and sounds foreign?):down:
    `
    "a language where adjectives precede the noun" (less common, but doesn't sound foreign?):down:
    Unless, ... in a language where ... :up:
    "in English, which adjectives precede the noun in" :down:
    `
    "a language that adjectives precede the noun" :down:
    "a language that adjectives precede the noun in" :down:
    Are the ones that you marked with ':down:' actually ungrammatical, or do they just sound unnatural?

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    Default Re: "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    Please read my comments.

  7. #7
    dihen is offline Member
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    Default Re: "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    Please read my comments.
    Well, you didn't clearly say which ones are ungrammatical and which ones are not ungrammatical but still awkward.

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    Default Re: "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    Oh, I see. OK. I hope this is better.

    "a situation where you don't know what to do"
    What's the context? As is, it's hard to say whether it's awkward or ungrammatical. The same holds true for the following. Note that, my judgements are based on what's given.

    "a situation that you don't know what to do in"
    ungrammatical

    "a situation that you don't know what to do"
    awkward

    "a language where adjectives precede the noun"
    awkward

    "in English, which adjectives precede the noun in"
    ungrammatical

    "a language that adjectives precede the noun"
    awkward

    "a language that adjectives precede the noun in"
    ungrammatical

  9. #9
    dihen is offline Member
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    Default Re: "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    Are some of these ungrammatical?
    `
    "Factors influencing the way that decisions are made: ..." (originally "in which")
    "The degree that I benefited more from this style of teaching than I would..." (originally "to which")
    "Table 25 provides a rank-ordering of the states by the extent that they teach American folk songs." (originally "to which")
    `
    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    Oh, I see. OK. I hope this is better. What's the context? As is, it's hard to say whether it's awkward or ungrammatical. The same holds true for the following. Note that, my judgements are based on what's given...
    What do you think of this one, ungrammatical or awkward?
    `
    "in English, which adjectives precede the noun" ('which' used as a relative pronoun)
    Last edited by dihen; 15-Jun-2006 at 12:36.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: "that" or "which" for "in which" and else?

    I suspect, but have yet to test it, that given the following distributional facts,
    where, when, why replace the more formal structure of preposition + which in a relative clause:

    Examples:
    • That's the restaurant where we met for the first time.
      (where = at/in which)
    • I remember the day when we first met.
      (when = on which)
    • There was a very hot summer the year when he was born.
      (when = in which)
    • Tell me (the reason) why you were late home.
      (why = for which, but could replace the whole phrase 'the reason for which')
    Source: edufind.com
    by anaology,

    1a. Factors influencing the way in which decisions are made.
    1b. Factors influencing the way that decisions are made. <OK>
    1c. Factors influencing how decisions are made.

    2a. the degree to which
    2b. the degree that <undecided; context would help>

    3a. the extent to which
    3b. the extent that <undecided; context would help>

    Note that, the switch from preposition + which to 'that' might not work in all contexts. You'll have to test it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dihen
    What do you think of this one, ungrammatical or awkward?

    "in English, which adjectives precede the noun" ('which' used as a relative pronoun)
    I can't tell, dihen. I need more context. What's the complete sentence?

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